In episode 43 of The Kitchen Table, Ken Baden welcomes his friend Alex Manfredonia from Vin 909, a popular restaurant in Annapolis. They discuss the challenges and rewards of being an independent business owner, the importance of fostering relationships, and their plans for the future. They also touch on the importance of service-based jobs and how they can be beneficial for personal growth.
Tune in for valuable insights into business, networking, and community.
TIMESTAMPS
[00:02:51] What Does Success Do to Your Social Life?
[00:04:21] Understanding and Empathy for Staff.
[00:09:24] The Challenges of Owning a Restaurant.
[00:14:30] Community Staple and Local Success.
[00:17:08] Culturally Diverse Customer Base.
[00:20:40] Menu Variety and Customer Satisfaction.
[00:23:30] Staff Retention and Customer Satisfaction.
[00:27:55] Reinvesting in Current Clients.
[00:29:09] Inconsistency in Restaurants.
[00:32:14] Workplace Dynamics and Teamwork.
[00:36:40] Hiring Challenges in the Industry.
[00:39:08] Community Support During Pandemic.
[00:46:01] Supporting Local Places.
[00:48:06] Building relationships Through Dining.
[00:51:11] Places to Find VIN 909.
In this episode, Ken Baden and Alex Manfredonia emphasize the crucial role of business owners in actively managing their restaurants and staying informed about what is happening. It highlights the fact that employees, no matter how skilled, will never have the same level of dedication as the business owner. They underscore that active involvement and awareness as a business owner are crucial for maintaining the restaurant's success and quality.
Moreover, Ken and Alex highlight the importance of treating and compensating employees well in the service industry. Happy employees lead to satisfied customers, ultimately contributing to the success of a business. They also delve into the significance of conducting trial periods for potential hires before making a final commitment. They recognize that despite comprehensive interviews and assessments, there is still a possibility that a candidate may not work out, and it is better to identify and address any issues early on.
QUOTES
SOCIAL MEDIA LINKS
Ken Baden
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TheKenBaden
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bluecollarcloser/
Alex Manfredonia
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alex-manfredonia-47370192/
WEBSITE:
The Kitchen Table Podcast: https://thekitchentablepodcast.net/
Intro/Outro00:03 - 00:16
Welcome to the kitchen table, a podcast about where business is done. So pull up a chair and join your host, Ken Baden.
Ken Baden00:16 - 00:44
All right. And welcome back to another episode of the kitchen table podcast live. And we haven't done it live in a long time. It's been like, six months maybe, but we had to bring the live back because for the first time in a long time, I have an actual fellow local Annapolis area, Maryland brethren, my buddy Alex from Venn 909, which is like the spot in Annapolis. Alex, how are you doing, brother?
Alex Manfredonia00:44 - 00:46
Good, brother. Good to see you.
Ken Baden00:46 - 02:53
It's good to see you too, man. And like I said, you've got Venn 909, which not to reduce you to, you know, the restaurant, but it's a very freaking popular restaurant, every single. So anyone who's listening to this, that isn't from Maryland, if you were, you would know exactly where Vin nine Oh nine was. It is every freaking day, every day. I mean, I'm, I'm not lying every day. There are lines out the door when you guys go to open like every day, just about. How? I mean, if you had to attribute, and I know we could go through the whole episode talking about that. And I don't want to just jump right into the meat and potatoes of it, but I can't express how hard that is to do. And I'm not, I don't have any experience in the service industry. So it's certainly not from like the ownership standpoint, my wife, who is now an attorney says that everyone who's anyone should be forced at some point in their life to do a service based job because it's just so good for you. Um, and she loved it. And she has so much appreciation for people. And she always admires when we go in there. And she said, the first time we went, she said, you can really tell that this place, you know, the management, she thought Jen was the owner the first time we went because Jen was so good and cared. And then when she found out like, okay, she's the manager, whatever, right. She's a part of the, you know, higher up or whatever. The point is, is the fact that she cared so much, like she was, or could have been the owner. was a direct reflection of like, she's like, okay, that's how these guys have so much success. The people that work here, A, have worked here for a long time. So you've got a great retention rate. And B, that's a reflection of ownership, which you and your father, so, and we can talk about that too, because I know, you know, working with the old man is a blessing and it's also working with your dad. So, I mean, you know, there are, which they get it, right? So first of all, man, A, How the hell are you? I mean, you're running one of the most popular restaurants in the Annapolis area. I guess, what's that like? What does that do to your social life?
Alex Manfredonia02:54 - 03:39
Well, fortunately I'm married. So, you know, I'm not, I'm not looking to go out after, you know, a night of work. So I'm usually looking to go home, which is at this point in my life is where I want to be. So that works out fine. You know, it took a couple of years, but you know, I've, we, we definitely try to make sure not only ourselves, as far as owners and managers have good work-life balance, but you know, we want that for our staff. So it took a, it took a while to get there. You know, I used to actually, physically live at VIN. I don't know if you knew that. I did not know that. But where the pizza kitchen is, is where my office is. And I had a studio apartment there. So for the first three years, I think, of running VIN, I actually lived there. So that just kind of shows what kind of commitment I was.
Ken Baden03:40 - 03:41
Right.
Alex Manfredonia03:41 - 04:41
I was literally living at literally living at my job. But, you know, but that all paid off. And, you know, it's it's a lot of it is just us being restaurant owners that have worked in restaurants our whole lives prior to our ownership. It's just having a real understanding and empathy of all the jobs involved at the restaurant. I've there's literally every single job at VIN I've done for someone else. at some point in my restaurant career, everything from cooking, to bartending, to bussing tables, to serving, to dishwashing. I've literally done it all. And because I have that personal experience, it gives me... not sympathy, but empathy for my staff. And I know where they're coming from and I know, um, what they're feeling and what they're dealing with and that them realizing that, that I'm looking out for them, they're looking out for me. And, um, it's, uh, it's definitely paid off, um, as far as staffing goes and longevity of a lot of my staff.
Ken Baden04:41 - 05:10
And the same ones are there, man have been for the years that I've been coming, but Take us through, you know, you just mentioned that you have done all of those things and you might need to bring this just a little bit closer, but you just mentioned that you've been through all of those positions. So what was that transition like? I mean, usually, you know, the first couple of questions or at least the first is like, hey, tell us your story. And in this case, how'd you get from A to Z, you know, from doing what you just said you were doing, which is all of those other jobs. I'd imagine not at VIN.
Alex Manfredonia05:10 - 06:37
It's, it's, it's, um, you know, my, my career did not start at VIN. That is for sure. You know, um, you know, my, I started working in restaurants when I was 13 years old, um, working for my dad's company when he had a restaurant company when I was a kid. So I was working for him. His places were a lot different than VIN. They were not really, they were more like counter service based, lunch spots in DC, really good food, but definitely more, you know, faster pace counter service. So I started off working in those, all my high school jobs, all my summer jobs were working in my dad's company, but I never worked under my father directly. I always worked under his managers and he always made it very clear to his managers that I am seen as an employee, like any other employee and not necessarily given any kind of, Special treatment because I was his son and so that made me mind my p's and q's when I was young coming up in restaurants and It just it just continued from there when I moved to California after I graduated high school and in 92 and, um, went to college, went to San Francisco state and just a good natural progression of being a college student is working in restaurants, especially waiting tables and bartending. So I continued to do that all through, uh, college and then got into fine dining after college. And then I got into managing and continued to, uh, manage high end fine dining restaurants in San Francisco, fine dining.
Ken Baden06:37 - 06:41
That's Like you're Michelin. Yeah. Yeah.
Alex Manfredonia06:41 - 06:49
Yeah. I worked at a one-star Michelin for a little while. Holy shit. So definitely Michelin rated restaurants. I worked for Wolfgang Puck for a couple of years.
Ken Baden06:49 - 06:49
Oh, wow.
Alex Manfredonia06:49 - 07:27
Okay. So yeah, definitely kind of the restaurant community in San Francisco is, it's fairly small and incestuous. So once you sort of establish your place in a, well-known restaurant, as long as you put your time in there, it's very easy to go on to the next thing. And, um, so, you know, that's what I did. I basically bus tables when I was 18 till I was 21. And when I turned 21, I started waiting tables and waited tables from 21 to third, um, 28. And then from there I decided it was time to step up my game and showed interest in, to my managers that I was working for that I wanted to start learning about managing and kind of went from there. So, uh,
Ken Baden07:29 - 07:36
Did you ever have any idea that you wanted to, that this was going to be your career path that you were going to do it forever?
Alex Manfredonia07:36 - 07:39
No. Yeah. It's interesting that you say that. Cause I actually went to school for music.
Ken Baden07:40 - 07:42
I was going to ask what you went to school for. I think you told me that before.
Alex Manfredonia07:42 - 08:31
For sound design. It was basically a communications program through San Francisco State. So it was audio engineering, sound design for film and music. Super fun, sexy stuff. Really hard to break into and make money at. And so I did that for a number of years and was an intern for a couple of people working basically for free and working in restaurants. And I was sort of talking to my family and complaining about it a little bit and sort of felt like I was sort of spinning my wheels. And, um, that's kind of when they came to me and said, Hey, you know, there's a restaurant for sale, which was the wild orchid at time. You know, how would you feel about, you know, doing a family thing and moving back East and, and instead of working for somebody else, learning to run your own restaurant. And so that was the opportunity that was, that made me leave California.
Ken Baden08:31 - 08:35
And that ended up being Vin. Wild Orca became Vin.
Alex Manfredonia08:35 - 08:39
How long ago was that? Man, it's going to be 13 years, April.
Ken Baden08:39 - 08:47
13 years Vin has been Vin. How was it in the beginning? Was it what it is? I mean, I can't imagine.
Alex Manfredonia08:47 - 10:09
I mean, it was, it was a lot of things, you know, it was very special because The neighborhood of Eastport specifically but the whole city of Annapolis definitely embrace been pretty quickly, which was amazing for us we were very fortunate that that happened. I think our timing was really good for the neighborhood of Eastport and. you know, it was just a lot of, it was good timing. You know, we were bringing food that wasn't, um, in Annapolis at that time still really isn't. And we were doing something different. And so, so that was great in the beginning, but it was the hardest continues to be one of the hardest things, you know, I've ever done. It's a, it's a, it's a lot of work, but me being in the restaurant industry prior to Vin, I knew, I knew kind of, I had an idea of what if I was, getting into, you know, I'd, I'd opened other restaurants for other people and have been involved in those kinds of situations. So I knew the difficulties of it. I knew the risks of it as well, but I had the confidence of working for my, with my father who'd been in the restaurant business for 30 plus years at that point. And I already had a good 20 years under my belt at that point. So I was feeling confident, but it was time and it did hurt my social life for a number of years actually. And fortunately when I met Rebecca, you know, I kind of changed a little bit and she's a little bit more patient and doesn't mind, you know, opposite schedules and that kind of stuff. So it's, it's worked out really nice.
Ken Baden10:09 - 10:10
And you're married to Rebecca too.
Intro/Outro10:10 - 10:11
Yeah.
Ken Baden10:11 - 10:18
I didn't even know that. Yeah. I, uh, And that explains why we connected so quickly.
Alex Manfredonia10:18 - 10:19
So many similarities.
Ken Baden10:19 - 11:40
Well, we knew when we first met. So I, you know, obviously I own Potomac, Potomac customer modeling. If you're listening to this and you haven't ever heard of it, but it's PCR roofing, Potomac, whatever. We did the roof there on Van Nuyt. We have an employee here that just so happened to used to work there. Great guy, still here, love him to death. And he's like, Hey, you know, and he's like, you ever heard of this restaurant? Dude, I'm there every Saturday. I was already there. It was already a staple for me and my now wife. And we just, it's our favorite restaurant. So when he said that, I'm like, oh, you gotta be shitting me. And I was like, yeah, I know it. And we're there every Saturday. I know Stephanie. It was just a weird hodgepodge of, I knew Steph that had worked there for a long time. And we went to high school and to middle school together, maybe even elementary school, definitely middle school. She had a crush on me back in middle school and she was very quiet. She's not much less quiet now. She was so shy that if I said like, like her friends would, you know how middle school was all, oh, Stephanie's got a crush. And if I said hi, her face would be like, and I don't regret her. It's just, she could, she was, her social anxiety was crippling. And I like felt so bad because she was just like, but I loved her to death. She's such a sweet person and she's so much fun. And we, you know, obviously she's changed and she's a lot more open now, but she's still pretty reserved.
Alex Manfredonia11:40 - 11:47
She's pretty reserved, but she's a great, Steph's great. She's a great employee. She's definitely part of the family for sure.
Ken Baden11:47 - 13:41
And she sort of like, so knowing her, having that in, then hiring somebody who just so happened to used to work there. And it's just like, you have all these little plugins and then we ended up doing the roof. And that's how I got to meet Alex personally, but I met Alex's father first. And I could see right away the dynamic of like, okay, this is the gentleman that runs the business, Alex. Whereas the father's more like, Very, he reminds me of mine, like probably more business savvy. Like my dad would tell you right off the bat, like, hey, that's you. You know what I mean? Nine to five, regimented military. I think your father was former military. Yeah, we talked about that. And so he loved that, but I had to go pitch dad and that was not easy. And I was like, oh man, but I went myself and pitched, you know, and did the whole spiel because it was Vin. And I was like, no, no one else is going. I'm going to go, I'm going to meet, Cause I thought it was a big thing for us too, man, to get to do one of, you know, we want to be an Annapolis staple. We want to be a brand like I see Vin, you know? And so for me, I was like, man, this is really cool. We can put a sign out. I don't know if we ever got a job from that, man. But what I do know is that now we have a relationship and I said this today on Facebook, I said relationships. our currency. I mean, like 100% they're everything to me. And I think the art of fostering relationships, not transactional, like real true relationships, uh, is just probably the biggest thing I would suggest to anybody who's looking to like do anything major, you know, all these goals, like learn relationships, man. Like to me, that sales to me, that's business to me, that's networking and all of those things play because you know, everyone knows Vin. And if you want to be a staple in this community and now you're connected to Vin and you're connected to this business and this business, and who's to say what you could do. We just did that charity event. And I immediately thought of you guys. We learned a lot of lessons. I'm actually glad I didn't like bring you guys in on this one because there was a lot of things we need to clean up.
Alex Manfredonia13:41 - 13:41
Yeah.
Ken Baden13:42 - 15:22
But in the future, you know, us, you, any other local businesses that want to get in. And next thing you know, now you have this big, you know, you guys are the area like you all are, and you put your time in, you know, we're only in our third year in January. And, you know, we moved from Annapolis to Crofton and we still, you know, I still live in Annapolis, but kind of been every, I moved as you know, but still came up to there at least once a month. I moved an hour and a half to Southern Maryland for my wife now was my fiance. Then I'm like, all right, we got to figure this out. Am I going to put a ring on it or not? So I moved all the way down there and drove an hour and a half plus every day to and from here. And that was miserable, but it was worth it because now obviously we're married. We came back here and we get to go to Venn whenever we want, but. just having that community staple. For instance, I talked to What's Up Annapolis Magazine today. We're trying to do some things with them. And I mentioned, oh yeah, you know, by the way, I'm doing a podcast tonight with the guys from Venn 909. There was no, she knew right away what I was talking about. You know what I mean? Everybody knows Venn. What's that like? Knowing, one, I know it's gotta be a lot of work. So this is a two part question. One, what's it like? You know, it's gotta feel good. It's gotta feel good seeing that line out. I kid you not. Every, You go by there when they open, before they open. Try it. Test my theory. Go over there any day during the week, get there before they open and tell me there's not a line out the door. And what restaurateur, I guess, if there just so happens to be one listening to this, and we'll clip this up and post it, what advice would you give to get that?
Alex Manfredonia15:23 - 17:36
So, you know, I think as far as, you know, I can only go as far as my own personal experience, but as far as Annapolis goes is one of the things that I think Vin has always tried to change in Annapolis, as far as their restaurants seen in Annapolis. And it is starting to change slowly with other restaurants in Annapolis, but is that we don't really focus or concern ourselves with the tourism of Annapolis or, um, what we think is going to sell or you know, be a big winner. It's we trust our own personal tastes and our own personal style. And we've been very fortunate that people have kind of come along for that ride with us. Um, we focus much more on locals and what the locals are looking for compared to what people that don't live in Annapolis is looking for. And I think as far as restaurants and older restaurants in Annapolis, that's a little, That's part of the problem is that they kind of acquiesce to what they think people are looking for, whereas we're lucky. We just created menus and food and style of the kind of places that we would like to eat at, and it's working for us. We're very fortunate that way. Um, and all, you know, everything outside any business we get outside of Annapolis for us is great. And we appreciate it, especially, you know, we get a lot of younger people coming from Baltimore and DC, especially more urban environments, which we love seeing that. We love seeing a bunch of different people come in on Friday and Saturday nights, culturally different, you know, uh, you know, sexual orientation, whatever, you know, we love to see, you know, the thing that's beautiful about VIN is that we have people that come, I have regulars that are in their 80s, I have regulars in their 20s, we have straight, we have gay, we have all kinds of nationality. I mean, you know, I have a, you know, I've got a bunch of Indian families that love to eat at VIN. I mean, it's just everybody comes there because we create this environment that we want to be in ourselves. And because we're able to do that, we're just lucky that that's the environment that people want to join in on, you know. And it's not really worrying about what we think is going to, you know, I'm never going to have a crab cake. That's all there is to it. Yeah. It's not me. I'm not, I'm not that kind of restaurant.
Ken Baden17:36 - 17:39
We'll have crab pizza. I got crab pizza.
Alex Manfredonia17:39 - 17:49
I got that. Not saying I want to have crab on the menu, but I'm just, you know what I mean? I just, you know, I'm not going to have fried calamari. You know, I, it's, these are just, there's just things that it's just not what we do.
Ken Baden17:49 - 17:51
Cliche Maryland.
Alex Manfredonia17:51 - 18:09
Exactly, exactly. And if, and you know, to the restaurants that do that stuff, well, God bless them. But you know, there's a lot of people that kind of, romanticize what it means to own and operate a restaurant. And it's a lot of work. It's a lot of work.
Ken Baden18:09 - 18:23
I get exhausted thinking about what it must be like for you, because I know what it's like for me. And I have three businesses, mind you, two of which are even relative right now. And I say that with love, they're my own businesses, but one of which I'm not really doing much with. And I see you, I'm like,
Alex Manfredonia18:25 - 19:11
Nah. I mean, you know, the stress itself is, is, you know, a lot of, a lot of stress with running a restaurant is, you know, it's like being a parent, you know, it's, it's constantly worrying about your baby. Right. No matter when you're, when you have kids and you're a parent, your kids can be in their forties and you could be in your seventies. And at the end of the day, you're still going to worry about your kids, even if they're grown up, even if they have their own kids. And that's the way I feel about Vin, no matter how big Vin gets or how popular we are. It's never permanent. It's never, you can never rest on your laurels. There's always could always be better. There's always more to do. There's always ways to improve things. And, um, that's, that's the challenge. That's, that's the challenge is keeping things interesting and fresh, but still staying with your style. So people keep coming to what they expect.
Ken Baden19:11 - 19:16
And you do that by changing the menu every spring, fall, every, every season.
Alex Manfredonia19:17 - 21:20
Yeah, we, you know, that's, that's one of the, the, the keys to our success is that, you know, we do some things on the menu, as you know, are very simple and they've always been on the menu and they're not going to come off margarita pizza, chef more pizza, skirt steak, you know, but these are staples. And so the key is, is that if we're going to have staples, that people are always expecting, they need to be good all the time. They can't be good some of the time, they got to be good all the time. You know what I mean? And they got to be consistent. And that's always a challenge after 13 years and different cooks and different people coming in and keeping that consistency. So the challenge is to do things that are simple, Really, really well. He's really good products. But then also throw stuff on there for people that want to, you know, go off the rails and be a little bit more gourmet, you know, and try something different. And that's that's what we really try to do at VIN. We try to, like, throw some stuff at you that's maybe a little unusual and stuff you haven't tried and something that's safe. Yes, not even safe just comfortable and warm and cozy I mean I've got people that have been coming to VIN for 10 years and they've gotten the same thing just about every time they've come in for 10 years But then they come in with friends and get something different with their friends and they're like, this is amazing How long has it been on the menu? Well about four years now, so, you know what I mean? So I People is me by the way, but that's, Hey, that's, that's what we do. You know what I mean? Like that's, that's what I'm going for. I'm trying to hit all those notes. I'm trying to, if you just want to come, I mean, I've got regular some of my, you know, a couple of my best regulars, you know what, when they come into Vin, they want a pepperoni pizza. That's what they want. And that's what I give them, but it's damn good pepperoni pizza. We use really, really good quality pepperoni, good quality cheese. We make the sauce, we make the dough, you know what I mean? But then there's the rock star, right? Which I've talked about, which is pizza with foie gras and truffles on it. $30 pizza. And it's super rich and it's super crazy, but I got people, they get that all the time. So it, you know, it's in the pizza world, you know, but that's, I feel like that's kind of how the menu tries to be in general. You know what I'm saying?
Ken Baden21:20 - 23:34
And you have, it's so obvious. And Becca was, my wife was talking about my Becca. She was like, you know, you use such good ingredients and it's just, You know, even with the price points, she's like, I don't know how, you know, cause you can just tell the ingredients are so good, no expenses spared. And yet, you know, you're not out here and this is not a plug. First of all, I will shamelessly plug Ben all day every day. Cause it is my favorite restaurant, but that's not what we're doing here. This is the kitchen table. And there's also a little play on kitchen table restaurant, but Alex and I developed a friendship and he is absolutely an entrepreneur. And in my case, a damn good one, right? Because he runs arguably the most successful, 100%, he and his father run one of the most successful restaurants in Annapolis, maybe the most successful. There's no denying that. Everyone knows who it is. Everyone knows, dude, there's lines. I keep saying that, but why do I keep saying that? Because that's so rare. I can't, it's been, they've been open. It didn't just open last month. Think about that. When do you normally see that? Oh, chain opens up. There's a lot of hype. Maybe they to maintain that for 13 years. And me just looking at that from an entrepreneurial standpoint, the respect you have to give the guys running that kudos to you, bro. I mean, you've kept things had to have, have to be doing something right to keep that going. And that just means, again, let me break this down for you perspective and current entrepreneurs out there. What does that really mean? they're catering to their clientele currently, they're keeping things fresh. And this isn't a service-based industry. Oh, by the way, their retention rate has to be above 90%. I mean, from what I would guess, I've seen the same people there every week for at least the three or four years I've been coming there. And so same folks, same, and this is wait staff. And so you know how hard that is. So they must be, treating them right, paying them right. I mean, people don't stay doing those things. These folks are here to stay and you found a way to make it a career.
Alex Manfredonia23:34 - 26:09
You know, and anybody that doesn't think that, especially running a business where you have people that got to deal with the public, you know, if you don't keep those people happy and they're not happy, then they can't be happy with your customers. And if you think that you, are so, if your food, you think your food is so good or that your vibe and your restaurant is so good that the service doesn't matter, you are making a huge, huge mistake. And, um, you know, everybody wants to be treated well and everybody wants to feel special. And when you have service that is friendly, not only friendly and laid back, but like back up what they're doing, they back what they're selling. They back, you know, we, we, you know, often have the staff taste food. We often have the staff taste wine. We often have them try that stuff together because we want to make sure that they, they're, they're, they're enjoying and they like what they're selling. You know, there's some staff members, like I don't expect them to start to sell dishes that they don't like. That's fine. Don't sell the dishes you don't like and really push the crap out of the ones you do and really show people, you know what you're talking about, you know, And so, I mean, that's part of the thing with Vin, but the other thing is that we don't want anybody to feel intimidated. I mean, wine can be very intimidating for a lot of people. And I think my staff does a really good job of, you know, chatting with people and kind of feeling out what they like and see what their, you know, what their interests are as far as flavors go and being able to pick things for them, or at least bring them options for them to try. You know, that's one of the things that we always tell them, you know, if someone can't make a decision between a bottle of wine, bring them a taste and let them try it and figure, you know, decide for themselves. So those kinds of things, those little things are really important where, you know, if you make your staff feel special and like, they feel like they're part of something, they're just going to work harder for you. And especially when it comes to waiting tables, I mean, you know, I don't think that a lot of restaurant owners really emphasize, like, if I'm making your money, you're making money. My staff does well when the restaurant does well. Their tips are higher when they're knowledgeable about what they're selling, or they have somebody, they turn somebody on to something that they would maybe never ever try on their own, and they take a chance, and they give it a try, and it blows their mind, and then they come to Vin, and they get it every time they come in. I mean, I have, that happens with wine all the time where I have regulars be like, I know you've never heard of this wine, but I want you to taste it because I think it's your style. And I think you'll like it. We give them a little taste. And from then on out, every single time they come in, they get that wine, you know? I mean, these are the little things that you got to do for people to kind of, it's not even hooking them in. It's just showing them that you, you know, care that you're trying to improve their experience.
Ken Baden26:09 - 26:39
And you have to know them well enough to like, Hey, and when that hits, that's such a bold statement, man, that's really, you know, I actually had a meeting with my office manager today. She's really good at like parties and interpersonal relationships. And we want to really invest more in culture. I have a peer of mine, Ibrahim Hussain, he's a, he's a real estate guy in Canada. Number one, real estate brokerage. I don't know if that's the proper terminology. He's got all these groups like the such and such group from, it doesn't matter. They all come under his umbrella.
Alex Manfredonia26:39 - 26:39
Yeah.
Ken Baden26:40 - 29:16
He has a billion dollar group that just joined, and he has people flying in from all over the country to figure out his culture. Well, he's got a full-time culture manager, czar, whatever you want to call him, and her job is just to know everyone, in, out, their shoe size, birthdates, whatever, their wives and husbands, shoe size and birthdates, their parents, their kids, intimately. He hires folks and learns their love language, has them take that test, and all these different, I'm like, Holy crap, dude. I can't, you know, beat myself up too much, but it seems like that you have a great culture for me and my clients. That's where I'm like, how do we get what you have? Because again, it's very transactional. And that's why I was so big on opening up and diversifying at the beginning of this year, we started the bathrooms and solar is not gone anywhere. We still do solar. Uh, we don't push it as much as a separate division. It's more of an, upsell for lack of a better word with roofing, like, Hey, in addition to, right. And I don't mean that negatively. It's just quite literally like you get a good view roof. Hey, if we can, because it's really gotta make sense to your point, like we're not pushing it unless it really makes sense for our client. Right. But we want them to know that we want to really invest in them. So anyhow, I was just talking to her today, like we need to really reinvest in our current client base. not even trying to get more out of them, just send them some Christmas cards. You know, when I was small, small, and this was only a few years ago, I knew the dog, I knew the mom, the dad, cause I was going out to most of these jobs. And as you scale, I don't want to scale myself out of the relationships. You know what I mean? And so I just, even like kind of having that realization here and perhaps some of it was even just thinking of you coming, man, I don't know, you know, like seeing people like yourself, like Ibrahim and how well you keep that culture in your relationships. I know how I feel coming there. And a big part of that experience is why I keep coming back. Of course, the food is phenomenal. I've never left there. I'm like, oh, I went to a restaurant recently. We have date night every Saturday night. It was an Annapolis restaurant. It's a chain, a bigger chain, but we went. And we had a good experience the first time. And this last time, man, we go in, it's packed. It was dirty. It was just left us there, you know, dirty glass, dirty seats, dirty floor. And I'm like, I can't believe this, man. And so it was, it was, you know, it wasn't the waiter's fault, man. And again, my wife is like always on me about not blaming, you know what I mean? Like, well, they got to do all these things and don't, you know, make sure I'm an excellent tipper. I think a lot of it's because I got a lot of pressure on from the wife. That's like,
Alex Manfredonia29:16 - 29:21
Hey man, let me tell you it's Saturday night. So you should have your a team. You know what I mean?
Ken Baden29:21 - 29:22
Yeah.
Alex Manfredonia29:22 - 30:18
That's what she said. You know, you should have your a team on Saturday night and inconsistency will not only kill a restaurant can kill any business. You know, if you, you, the, I think, I think a lot of the problems with a lot of restaurants, especially restaurants that don't have owners that are in the restaurant consistently is the complaint. They get complacent. It becomes easy and they got other people to take care of things. But at the end of the day, as a business owner, you should know that, you know, I'm sure you know this, like no employee, not your best employee that you have as good as they might be. They're never going to care as much as you do. And so you always got to keep your eye on things. And I don't mean that in the sense of like a hawk or get down on people or anything like that. You just got to be, aware of what's going on around you, even at the times where you have to step back and make sure that the people you do have around you, that they're like-minded and they see your vision and they follow through with that vision that you have.
Ken Baden30:18 - 32:28
That's a great, great point. And for me too, again, scaling out, that's another thing like, man, how do I, well, you can start with, and I'm saying all of this as I've sought mentorship and coaching and like, It's not that if I've done it, I could talk to people like you and guys that have scaled and say, well, hey, focus on your, your core, right? We went and let a whole bunch of folks go completely. We've been rebranding, I'd say really, I would say building around core values for the last year. And as such weeding out folks that just didn't fit that good, bad, doesn't matter. Like they just didn't fit. We thought they did at the time. And then, you know, they were here for a season, not, not a lifetime. And so. where we are now, I believe we have our foundational pieces from which we can build around. If you didn't have those foundational pieces. So what it allows me to do is then pour into those folks. Now they have my vision, at least even a modicum of my vision is better than like, you know what I mean? Like I can pour in as much as I can. And now they are living, breathing like the same culture and that all runs downhill, but it starts at the top. You know what I mean? And so they say the fish, it stinks from the head down. If I'm a setting the example and maintaining these core values doing the things that I respect than the guys like Rick, right? You know, he's sitting here right now. He's not a camera operator. I mean, he's one of my right-hand guys and he's in here like, Hey, I'll help out, man. Jump in here at six o'clock on a, on a Tuesday. But you know, he's, he's also very bought in on, Hey man, I'll take whatever time I can get with you, you know? And then that passes on to the next guy. The experience they're going to get from Rick is not going to be a, I read a book called the 13 fatal errors managers make and how to avoid them. And one of which was the we versus them type deal, right? It should never be an us versus them or a we, excuse me. It should always be, we should never be us versus them, right? It's a we thing all the time. And the moment that it's the sales team versus ops, or it's the sales team versus management, or it's Rick goes back down and say, yeah, they gave us these KPIs this week. I don't know how the hell they expect us. to do this or us to hit these goals, we're just dead, man. You're dead.
Alex Manfredonia32:28 - 34:21
It's the exact same thing in restaurants. It's the same thing. It's a classic thing with the front of the house and the back of the house with the service staff in the kitchen. And I don't, I don't put up with that. I don't, you know, if, if you can't get along with everybody, get out, you know what I mean? One of the, one of the reasons that the front of the house works so cohesively together is that there's no competition for money. or a position in the restaurant. It's a pooled house, which means that everybody that we collect the tips and then divvy it out based on jobs and time worked. And that way everybody does whatever just needs to get done. Yeah, you're you might have your specific job that that's your focus. But, you know, if you're not doing anything and you're a waiter and a table needs to be cleared and all my busters are busy, better get your ass over there and clear that table because we want to turn it and you need to see it and you need to serve it so you can make that 20 percent. So, but- But I've seen, by the way. But yeah, so that's in my restaurant and moving forward, and I've worked in restaurants. My restaurant career, I've probably worked in, I mean, through the years. Vin's been around for 13 years. Prior to that, I think I've worked at over a dozen restaurants in my career from the time that I was 14 years old until- I was in my late thirties and I've worked in restaurants where there was complete divide between the kitchen and the front of the house. And it's a miserable environment to work in. And so, you know, I make sure that I hire cooks that gets along, gets, you know, we all need to get along with each other. And fortunately we all do. And so when someone doesn't get along, that person is like a beacon and they become very, you know, whether it's, whether it's not getting along because of personality, which can be tough, but usually it's because they're not pulling their weight. You know, if everybody is financially reliant on each other, as far as the front of the house and tips and all that stuff goes, then you're expected to pull your weight.
Ken Baden34:21 - 34:42
If I'm giving you some of my money, you know, somebody is brought into your culture and they make it past whatever rounds. And I've kind of given myself some slack on this recently because I was really beating myself up. I had a guy presented really, really well, and I'm not going to go into too many details, but the bottom line is it just didn't work out. Right. And so it just doesn't work out sometimes.
Alex Manfredonia34:43 - 34:45
Sometimes they're great on paper.
Ken Baden34:45 - 35:24
Or even first. And, and, uh, I had a podcast with Tommy, uh, Mello owner of a massive Raj door company. He said, I taught, I always try it before I buy it. He said, you know, 90 days, I've never had that experience, but you know, I think that's a good way if you're able to do that. I don't know how that would work there perhaps, but you know, I try it before I buy it, put them 10 99, 90 days, see if we work well together. You may hate me. I don't know. Right. But I thought that was pretty cool. But at any rate, You bring someone in, they sneak past, or they present so well, the moment that you realize that they're not a good culture fit, or that they're a cancer, how quick are you to say, hey, sorry, you gotta go?
Alex Manfredonia35:25 - 36:40
You know, to be really, really honest, if you are new to the restaurant and you're not jiving with everybody, there's kind of a, I don't even want to say exactly what that finite time is, but there's sort of a, between me and the executive chef, there's a sort of limited time of where we will accept You know, I mean, people make mistakes. People need to make adjustments. People need to feel comfortable. And we understand that. But, you know, in the words of my executive chef, fire fast, hire slow, you know, and sometimes it's just best to cut your losses. But on the other hand, you know, it's been really difficult. especially since the pandemic, which you've heard from not only just in the world in general, but it goes for restaurants too. You know, hiring good people is hard. So there's definitely, I definitely have a soft spot for people that have been with me for a minute. And I am a strong believer in everybody gets one. but if you've only meaning you get one chance, you know what I'm saying? Like everybody can mess up pretty good at least one time, depending on what it is. You know, I mean, obviously there's except, you know, but we're, you know, we always feel like, you know, people, people make mistakes and they should get a second chance, but you know what, if you're making big mistakes and you haven't even been with me for three months yet. Yeah. Bye. Yeah.
Ken Baden36:40 - 36:56
Yeah. Yeah. So you said, you said the actual, you know, I was going to say slow to hire quick to fire. I was kinda, Probably the opposite. I was slow to hire, excuse me, quick to hire and slow to, but- That's the times.
Alex Manfredonia36:56 - 37:01
I mean, you know, we're, we're in, you know, we're in a, in a, in a employee deficit, you know, for sure.
Ken Baden37:01 - 37:03
It's so wild, bro. It's so wild.
Alex Manfredonia37:03 - 37:44
You know, and I'm, I'm coming from, you know, a business that relied a lot, especially when it comes to the kitchen, relied a lot on people just following their passion. And a lot of people have lost that. And it's, it's not as prevalent. There's not, you know, there was a, there was a time pre pandemic where all kinds of, you know, um, chef TV and cooking things and all this kind of stuff. So every kid wanted to go and work in a kitchen and it was this super sexy thing to do. But now they're like, well, I can make a lot more money working for Amazon. So, you know, I, I get it. I understand it, but you know, I'm an independent business owner and I can only do so much. You know, we want to, we're, we're motivated. We're, we're planning on trying to open another restaurant.
Ken Baden37:44 - 37:46
I was just, that was my next question.
Alex Manfredonia37:46 - 38:56
What's the future? So we're, so we've had a lot of changes in the last six months and, um, few things. We've had a chef change. My old sous chef, Scotty, is coming back and is going to be my executive chef. He's he's he's amazing. And I'm super happy about that. And my old chef, who's there currently or was my most recent, Brett, he he just wants to take a step back and wants to go back to school. So we've So I've got that change, I have someone that's left that's coming back with me, but it's a new job for him and he's gonna be running the kitchen, so we have to get him up to speed. My sister is taking on a lot of the responsibilities of my father, so we're getting her up to speed. So we're making some internal changes, but about a year is the goal to start being trying to aggressively trying to open another place and start looking. But it takes time, here we are 13 years later and I'm just now, We're just now starting to feel like it's time to do that. I think pre-pandemic, we were starting to go in that direction of opening another restaurant. And then the pandemic, just like everybody else, it threw everything on its head in a big way.
Ken Baden38:56 - 39:01
I was going to say, man, but you guys survived and you were a restaurant. So you guys were hit the hardest, I think.
Alex Manfredonia39:02 - 39:54
Well, I, you know, it's, it's two things. Um, the number one thing hands down is the community. I mean, the, the support that we got from the locals and from the neighborhood was just unbelievable. I could only imagine it was unbelievable. And the kind, you know, it's as much BS as we stall during the, you know, during the pandemic and just dealing with people being crazy and all that kind of stuff. the, the, the appreciation for Vin and us being open and people being able to come and get takeout and stuff. I mean, the way that my, that they were tipping my staff was just, it was beautiful. It was, it was really amazing to see how kind, uh, and how people just really loved us as a restaurant and love my, my staff. And, and then, so that, that was the main thing. But the other thing is number one and number two, take out in the country, Chinese food and pizza. So, you know, it was, it was, it was fortunate that that was our focus at that time as well. But, um,
Ken Baden39:55 - 40:43
Which is funny, because you guys are certainly, like you said, you make a mean, solid, safe pizza, but you're a gourmet pizza, let's be real. Everything about you guys from the charcuterie to, it's just top notch. But man, I could ask, and we'll do a whole episode on working with dads. We'll spare the dads today. And I have nothing but love. My dad's listening, hey, you know I love you, man. Which is, it's a different dynamic. I do, I feel very fortunate there. But the reality is, man, is we are period fortunate, first and foremost, that with everything that's going on and all the socioeconomic just absolute turmoil and where you're at and everything, I mean, it's just very fortunate. So, and I mean, I'm not you yet, but I certainly cannot wait to be there.
Alex Manfredonia40:44 - 41:10
Well, you know, we're, I think we're, we're a little bit lucky in the area that we're in, you know, we're being, being so close to Washington DC and, um, we're in a little bit of a economical bubble, which is definitely helps a little bit, but you know, once again, I, for Vin, it's just always us being just focused on, on locals and being focused, not, not, not displacing or not, you know, paying attention to people that are not local. I'm just saying that that's where our focus is.
Ken Baden41:10 - 42:27
It's a great thing for me to hear, man, you know, cause again, With the whole charity stuff and everything, we really wanted to reverse engineer. And man, we never got the time. And I'll just briefly say the reason why. It was because Potomac or PCR at the time was quite literally just an afterthought. And I mean that in that it was business number two. It was the one that was in my name, there was another business. I was in Southern Maron, we were in Southern Maron. I moved up here, I moved up to Annapolis. We were, do you know what I mean? We were trying the area out and everything. I always wanted to live in Annapolis, but it was the baby, it was the new one, right? Then it became, we split, whatever, doesn't matter why, but then it was my baby and only my baby and the baby in my name. And I was kind of forced into just react and make it work. Yeah. Lest it fall apart. And people are counting on me and it didn't. And fortunately everything's worked out so wonderfully and we've been so blessed. We're the fastest to ever get to Owens Corning, which is our manufacturer, uh, their platinum certification, which requires certain volumes, certain standards, all of these things. So like, we've been so blessed, but we just didn't have the time to like do the things that I did for the other company. Yeah. in the very beginning, which was really firmly plant our roots in our backyard.
Alex Manfredonia42:27 - 43:14
Yeah. I mean, that's why it's taken me, you know, I would, if you just take out the pandemic, I would have said nine years, but now with the pandemic, that's why it's taken me 13 years to, to really feel comfortable going towards another restaurant because it does mean that I have to step away from Vin a little bit, not permanently, but that made me real, that made me real nervous. Once again, it's my baby. It's, it's something that I've put everything that I have into it and it's hard to step away from, but after the, you know, the time that I've been there and the people that I have behind me, Jenny, for example, um, my, my chefs, my current chefs, um, you know, these are all people that I trust, right? that have been with me for a long time. And so now is the point that I feel comfortable like, okay, I can step back. And when I say step back, I'm just talking about not being there.
Ken Baden43:14 - 43:22
I was getting ready to say, right. You won't be there every single night, still be there several days out of the week and still running the restaurant from a farther distance, but just not every day.
Alex Manfredonia43:22 - 44:33
Right, because why? It's my baby. But at the end of the day, I live 13 miles away from Vin. So I can be there within 10 minutes at any time. And believe me, there's been plenty of times over the years where the alarm goes off at 3 o'clock in the morning and I got to be there. So yeah. So there's a reason people for years was like, why don't you open another place? Why don't you open another place? Because I wasn't ready to. I wasn't ready to. financially, I wasn't ready to emotionally, I wasn't, it just wasn't the right time. And I think that's a big mistake that a lot of people make is they have success with their first business and they're so quick to go to their second. However, there's a fine line there because sometimes you also got to just jump in. So you got to find that, that fine line that you can't just, you can't just be nervous and not do anything. And if that's the way you want, That's not true. As far as restaurants go, you know, I was always told by my family, look, if you want to just focus on Vin, we can just grow Vin more and that'll be it. And that will be our focus. But I want more for my staff and I want more for the people that have been with me for a long time. And the only way that I can give them more is to open another restaurant.
Ken Baden44:33 - 44:35
And that's beautiful, man. That's.
Alex Manfredonia44:35 - 44:37
And I want more for Annapolis.
Ken Baden44:37 - 44:37
Yeah.
Alex Manfredonia44:37 - 45:55
And, you know, and I mean, this is probably be the most arrogant thing I've said all night, but you know, Annapolis needs good restaurants and I'm ready to give them another good, give Annapolis another good restaurant. You know, that's, we think it's time and we think Annapolis is ready. And, um, fortunately there's some, you know, finally after many, many years of just the same old stuff, finally, there are some good independent restaurants opening up in Annapolis and, It's a different, it's a cool thing to see. It is. And it's a different energy. The old school Annapolis restaurant scene was very competitive. It was very you against me. That's not the way the newer restaurant owners in this town are. And I'm talking about guys like sailor and Scotty from sailor, you know, Leo's, uh, preserve, um, you know, garden, you know, these are independent restaurant owners that are, that are doing their thing the way they see it. And fortunately it's working for them. And, So, um, if you're not familiar with sailor, I want to give a shout out to sailor oyster bar. They had a fire about a year ago. Hopefully we will see them to reopen in the new year. So I want to give a shout out to sailor, go out and go out and support sailor. Are they coming back this year? Yeah, they're, um, hopefully, you know, you know how things are in this town in Annapolis, man, it's, it's permitting, you know, between, between them dealing with permitting and insurance, it's been a very slow process, but they're hoping by the new year that there'll be a, there'll be a reopen.
Ken Baden45:55 - 46:12
Well, shout out. And certainly. When they do, do whatever you can to go and patron that place, man. Go support them. We gotta support our local places, man. Me spending my money on a Saturday night, the only reason we did it is because we always go to Vin. And at some point, it's like- That's okay.
Alex Manfredonia46:12 - 46:13
You can always go to Vin.
Ken Baden46:13 - 46:58
I love going, hey, brother, I will always go there. I feel like my wife eventually is like, all right, bro, you gotta try. You know what I'm saying? I think that's the inference is that I'm somehow not, and that's not true. I just could eat there. And she knows, dude. She's good for it. nine times out of 10. It's just like that one time where she's like, can you try? Try and find, what she wants me to do is find somewhere new. It's not even, it's just put a little effort in. I'm like, all right, all right. And so you just lifted off some other independent ones that we can go and support. But the reality is you're getting ready to open another one. So dude, I'm good. I have two, that's it. I don't have to do any more work. I'll balance between those two and that'll be enough finagling. I just probably just screwed myself by saying that, but eventually she'll find out you own it, but she won't care.
Alex Manfredonia46:58 - 47:24
Yeah, you know, the hope is and it's going to really with with Vin, I'm very much aware that the the space can really kind of determine the concept. So we're really hoping to find something close to Vin, a space close to Vin, so we can do something. We definitely want to do something different. You know, there might be, you know, still have the same energy and the same vibe as Vin, similar price point. But food wise, we want to we don't want to compete with ourselves.
Ken Baden47:24 - 47:25
No, I don't.
Alex Manfredonia47:25 - 47:26
So hopefully we can do something sexy.
Ken Baden47:26 - 47:27
Gotta do something different, bro.
Alex Manfredonia47:27 - 47:29
But I'm not gonna give too much more than that.
Ken Baden47:29 - 47:36
No, no, no, no, no. Keep your secrets, man. I'm excited. I personally, I already knew you weren't gonna do the same. Yeah. There's no way. You gotta do something.
Alex Manfredonia47:36 - 47:39
Maybe pasta instead of pizza or something like that.
Ken Baden47:39 - 48:10
We'll see. We'll talk off camera. Best food in town. If you have not, I doubt if you've seen this. If you haven't been, But by all means, if you're listening to this and you stop into the Maryland area, Annapolis area, anywhere in Maryland, it's worth a drive to the Annapolis East port area specifically and check out then nine Oh nine. It's my favorite restaurant. Personally, we did the roof. So check that out. But it's just the best man. The waitstaff is wonderful. You know, you see Becky, you see Steph, see Jen, take care of them or else.
Alex Manfredonia48:11 - 48:22
Take a, take a page from Ken's book of dining at Vin 909. You come at eight 30 at night. It's a lot easier to get in just so you know, right. Ken, like a lot less people on Friday and Saturday nights after eight o'clock.
Ken Baden48:22 - 48:27
You just gave away your secret. So now there's going to be a bunch of people there.
Alex Manfredonia48:27 - 48:29
You got my phone number buddies.
Ken Baden48:29 - 48:35
That's true. My wife was like, are you really? I was like, sometimes I might, I might, but yeah, anytime, anytime.
Alex Manfredonia48:35 - 48:35
It's never a problem.
Ken Baden48:36 - 51:18
I try not, you know, but I have, I got to give my man a shout out here, man, on my bachelor party. I don't drink. I don't do like anything. My bachelor party, we're like supposed to go somewhere. My brothers had his very serious thing. It was like my mother-in-law, his mother-in-law had gone to the hospital was so all the things we were going to do. And I'm like, I just go to van dude. I text Alex. He's like, oh yeah. However many people we have, we all just go like that. And so, man, that's the dynamic. And I will circle back, let's full circle this, what I said in the beginning, relationships are currency. Just from dining there, I think it's more than that, because I knew different people and so on. But now look at the relationship, right? Any way that I can help, do you think that I'd be more than happy to plug Alex and his business and everything because of the experience that I've had and the treatment that I've had? It's not transactional, it's reciprocity and it's true just, getting involved in your fellow human being and just building relationship, man. You know what I mean? So, I mean, I can tell you a story where I walked in there and I was traumatized, but I saw the roof leaking. You remember that? And I had done that. And he's like, I call Elmer at like eight o'clock at night, 830. And I'm losing my shit on him. You don't know this, but I was outside and I'm like videoing, stand up, calling Billy, called my dad, called Elmer. I got it all set up for Elmer because I wasn't going to go in there without a solution. I was like, here's no fucking way. Excuse my language. I'm walking in there, seeing this bucket in the middle of the floor, knowing full well, you know what I mean? Like I just can't in good conscience walk in there without a solution. So I come in there, I'm like, Hey man, he's like, dude, He like chases, he comes running from the front because he already sees my face. And I think my wife was in there in the front. He's like, it's not, it's leaking from this pipe. I'm like, what? And I had just set all this, I had to call Elmer. She's like, you just went and said that. I said, yes, I did. I called everybody. I'm going off. I'm like, you got to get out of here first. I'm looking, I don't know where it could be coming from, but anyhow, funny story. But that's because I genuinely give a shit. And this is, not only somebody that we did business with, but at this point, family, man, I'm there every Saturday, right? Like that place is a place I care about. The people are people I care about. There's a relationships that we're looking for. Uh, and I think that what you guys have done at Venman is just absolutely amazing. I can't wait to see what you do in the future and just support that man. Anything you guys do, I'm in, I'm all in. So thank you so much for coming by brother. Check them out. Is there anywhere? Can they order and just shout out all the places they can find VIN 909 save obviously coming. online, anything like that?
Alex Manfredonia51:18 - 52:11
Yeah. So, uh, the website, um, we change the menu, uh, every, uh, season. So the menu is always updated. It's a Vin 909 wine.com. You check out the seasonal menu. Um, we usually post the evening specials, uh, around four 35 o'clock. So you can see all the specials for the evening. Um, yeah. And so you can always come check out the menu. There's a, also the wine list is online as well and kind of take a look at the sort of wines we carry. That's, kind of consistently changing, but, uh, we have over 62 wines by the glass. So if you, we've got some, you know, we got the classics, but we got some really cool, unusual, different wines. Come try some, some new stuff and, uh, you know, widen your horizons as far as your wine tastes go. And we're happy to, happy to help you along the way. And, um, you know, go on a little, little, little trip. Yeah, come check us out.
Ken Baden52:11 - 52:12
A little trip to Flavortown.
Alex Manfredonia52:12 - 52:13
A little trip to Flavortown.
Ken Baden52:13 - 52:36
There's all kinds of flavor boats on that town. I just messed that all up. There's lots of good flavors there. It's a good place. Thank you so much for coming by, man. We'll have to do this again soon. Maybe we'll pack up and take a, do a eating trip over there. Cool. Do an episode in the office. I mean, in your office. There you go. But brother, thank you so much, man. I can't wait to do this again. And we'll see you guys at Venn 909 in Annapolis and Eastport. Cheers.
Intro/Outro52:39 - 52:58
Thanks so much for tuning into this episode. We sure do appreciate it. If you haven't done so already, make sure you're subscribed to the show, wherever you consume podcasts. This way you'll get updates as new episodes become available. And if you feel so inclined, please leave us a review. It is how new people find the show until next time. Remember there's always a seat at the table for business.