In episode 70 of The Kitchen Table, Ken Baden interviews Zach Williams as they discuss the challenges and strategies of generating leads in the home service industry, particularly focusing on the roofing sector. They delve into the impact of market volatility, insurance company practices, and the evolving landscape of lead generation.
Tune in to this engaging conversation to explore the complexities of lead generation in the roofing industry and the broader implications for businesses in the home service sector.
TIMESTAMPS
[00:02:03] The Importance of Generating Leads.
[00:03:57] Vegan Bodybuilder Secrets Revealed.
[00:08:23] Building a Brand with Networking.
[00:12:16] Exclusive Pricing Strategies.
[00:15:14] Lead Generation Challenges.
[00:19:17] Buying and Scaling Businesses.
[00:21:21] The Power of Trust.
[00:24:46] Diversifying into Different Industries.
[00:29:07] Insurance Fraud in Roofing Industry.
[00:32:17] Insurance Challenges in Real Estate.
[00:34:54] Insurance and Government Intervention.
[00:43:40] Homeowner Insurance Coverage Concerns.
[00:53:48] Future of Storm Markets.
[00:57:23] Storms and Marketing Strategies.
[01:01:08] The Future of Trades.
[01:03:46] Working through College Challenges.
[01:08:44] Embracing Business Challenges.
[01:10:53] Trusted Lead Sources for Businesses.
[01:13:40] Sales and Lead Source Diversification.
QUOTES
SOCIAL MEDIA LINKS
Ken Baden
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/officialkenbaden/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/officialkenbaden
Zach Williams
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/the.zachwilliams/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zwilliams/
WEBSITES:
The Kitchen Table Podcast: https://thekitchentablepodcast.net/
Blue Collar Ballers Union: https://bluecollarballersunion.com/
Welcome to The Kitchen Table, a podcast about where business is done. So pull up a chair and join your host, Ken Baden.
All right, welcome back to another episode of The Kitchen Table podcast. I'm your host, Ken Baden. I've got my good friend, Zach, in the house today. All the way, I actually live, I know you don't live in Virginia full-time, but you have family here?
Ken Baden
No, so I live in Virginia. Oh, you do? I do, yeah, but I live in Southwest Virginia. but I actually grew up in Loudon County.
Zach Williams
Okay. All right. So you're here on business or pleasure?
Ken Baden
Well, I was here at a doctor's appointment for one of my kids. I was like, Hey, I'm in town. You want to hang out?
So you come up here in Northern Virginia frequently? Probably once a month. I was going to say once a month. Okay. All right. So, and you're from up here?
I am. Yeah. My parents still are up here. Two of my brothers are up here. Yeah.
But you're not that far. You're not, I don't know why I thought you were like several states away. No, no, no. All right, yeah, so you're still technically in Virginia, you're just in like the southern part of Virginia.
Yeah, better taxes, less traffic.
Lots of, better everything, really. Maryland's gotten brutal, dude. I am not a fan.
Of the traffic or the taxes? Both. Yeah. Both. I was stuck on 295 coming in here. I was supposed to get here like 30 minutes ago.
I believe it. You were trying to be all punctual and stuff and you forgot. No sir, not here. Yeah, it wrecked me. Not the DMV. Well, as he said, Maryland, well, I mean, Northern Virginia is still pretty, Yeah, it's very similar. I mean, at that now you're tomato tomato, but the taxes. The tax situation is better. We actually just started, we got our first, we're going way into like right into roofing and sales. You have to understand Zach, good friend, but also peer. And so Zach owns a marketing firm. That marketing firm has been kind enough to use us as their guinea pig and has been sending leads. The leads have been great. For roofing, as most of you guys know, who are, I think a lot of our demographic is probably They're not roofers, they're probably remodeling a door to door, but there's a ton of roofers that watch and listen to the show. I mean, the kitchen table is a play on where we send our reps to get to in the house. It's where business gets done. But in all seriousness, He is focusing on what I believe is the number one reason why most people don't succeed, definitely in retail, but in the remodeling and or roofing industry, which is leads. Leads are just, and how many times, like I told you, man, people spend, I've seen people lose their behinds just spending money on leads, leads, leads, leads, and they never pan out. Yeah. So Zach approached me, we had a mutual friend, I almost called him Tyler, Travis. Travis, yeah, good dude. Travis, super good. Travis McMuscle, AKA McMuscle Apex, that's where he's in my, he's in my phone as one of those things. It might be Travis McMuscle, but I like Travis a lot.
You know he's vegan? I do, dude, I do. So he's, for those who don't know, he's like, he's jacked, but he's vegan. I almost like, I was like, there's no way. He was like, oh yeah, 100%.
100%. I watched him, we met on a plane and it was a private jet And we were both scared. That's why we were like, we're going to be pals. Right. And, uh, he had a whole book bag full of like lentils or some beans and shit.
Yeah. Like he, I almost made fun. I felt bad. I almost made fun about it. He's like, he's really into it.
Oh yeah. He is very serious about it. And he does have his, uh, his vegan protein, man, wherever he, and you know, who else is, uh, is a vegan that is super jacked. I mean, I'm not taking anything away. Travis's is definitely jacked, but Frazier Bailey. Do you know who that is? Yeah. He's vegan. No. Yes. Yes. I know. I got some else going on there.
I'm just saying only on Sundays.
Yeah. He's vegan plus some secret juice or something, dude. And I say that with all the love, dude, because he's so big that it's almost like just assumed, but honestly, man, it wouldn't surprise me if he's like, Nah, mate, I'm totally natural. I don't know. I can't do his, he's from, uh, he's here now, but he's from, what do they call him? A Kiwi, New Zealand.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kiwi, right. Yeah. I think that's what they, I don't know. We could be totally off base. We're stupid Americans, dude. We only care about ourselves. So, uh, but getting back to the topic at hand, because I think it's an important one. Zach and I met, And then we started talking business and he knows about you know, obviously what I do but then also to like the blue-collar ballers group podcast Consulting company and something that I've worked really hard on which is my network and a lot of whom listen to the show So if you're listening to the show Adam any of the guys that are here local I can certainly make that connection to to Zach and I've been wanting to but Zach is such a cool dude and that he stands behind his product I got to say man like I respect the hell out of that because not only did we, we originally had a podcast set up a month ago. It's about a month. Yeah. And you were like, no, man, I'd rather push it back to make sure that you've had a chance to work. Some of these leads really get value from it because we wanted to actually have a conversation about like, how were the results? You know, are you truly happy? Uh, because, you know, he was kind enough for me to say, look, I'm, I will push whatever's working, but I need to know it works. And so I was just so impressed because most guys aren't going to do that. And so I can, I can say without a doubt, like Zach is truly about his business. Uh, so if you're looking for somebody who's not just out for the bottom line, I mean, he's a businessman, but he's more than willing to provide, Hey, I I'm willing to bank on my products. And that's the last plug. And I say that with love, man, because I mean it.
I mean it. I appreciate it. Well, here's the thing. So you say I own an agency. I, I, I own this, um, marketing firm that primarily actually focuses on like the building product space. And I, but I exited that. So I promoted a CEO, promoted a CEO and I've gotten more into home services because the story behind this is I had, um, client who was a roofing company a couple of years ago. And we got access to their CRM and we see all the deals we're bringing in and they were doing three, 400, 500 K worth of revenue from the work that we were doing. And we lost that client. We lost them. And it like, it like, it didn't shake me up. I was like, well, what in the world? Like we're driving a ton of like revenue for this company. And I had this epiphany that, you know, a lot of roofing companies have been burned by agencies. They don't like them. And they also don't like Angie's list or these other lead sources, right? We do not don't. And, and I think it's a big part of it is because of the way it's not mutually, it's not mutually beneficial. Like for Angie's list, they'll get your lead and they're going to get sell to two or three other companies. And you're, you know, you're hoping that you're the one that they choose and for an agency. And I own, I can say this because I own an agency that when you hire an agency, you're, you're really paying for two things. You're paying for leads, which is what you want, but you're also paying for your brand and they're going to build your brand. And sometimes that's really hard for a lot of roofers to see is that, Hey, I'm going to, I'm going to pay this agency. They're gonna help me build my brand, but that's harder to measure. And so what we've done is we've shifted the model and said, Hey, let's just build a business that's solely focused on very transactional. You get exclusive leads, you only pay for what you get. And if there's an issue with any of those leads, we refund you. And so what we found is that roofers have really taken this because if they know their conversion rates and they know that they can sell, they're going to make really good money on those margins. Right.
Yeah.
Well, I mean the one you're you're for, what was your first lead?
I was just going to say the first one we got might've been the second, but like the first one was like outside of our area or something. So the first one we got that was applicable that we really, it was, um, a cedar shake job. The guy was moving, but we still did fine, you know? And so I was, I was really impressed, you know, and we've gotten a big uptick here as of late in terms of like what we've been able to. And again, we're giving like a small sample size versus what he's used to, because I have peers of mine that I've made a connection and I've started slowly because even then too, it's like, like you said, man, I mean, like we meet each other, come on each other's podcast, get to know one another. It's like. I've worked really hard to build a brand with the podcast and the networking groups and the coaching group. And it's like, yes, I've got access to a ton of, you know, and that would be ecstatic to hear like, dude, you know what, I've got a, an actual good, viable, real exclusive lead source, but it's just like, it's just so hard to take that serious unless you have.
That's the funny thing is like there's guys. So I started getting some leads recently in Houston because we're, we're, um, getting leads in a bunch of parts of Texas, but I don't have somebody in Houston. And I talked to a guy that you introed me to, and then someone else in your group, Andrew cluster.
That's right. Yeah.
Andrew. And he was very receptive, but a lot of the roofers I've spoken to, like, they're so, uh, skeptical, which I'm like really surprised about really surprised because I'm like, I know, I know the metrics, I know the numbers, I know the quality, but you're right. Like people have been really burned.
Yeah. I mean, and it's just a, it's a tale as old as time, unfortunately, because I mean, like, I would say that when I first started two businesses ago, we knew like, all right, where do you get leads from? And back then Angie's list was still Angie's list, but it was before they had bought You know, and that's already like, you know, everybody's looking for exclusivity. So like if everyone knows about it, you're not going to get the exclusivity. And then, you know, the underlying objections always going to be the same. Cause to your point, they sell it to everybody, everybody, which is why I still believe so much in door to door or even cold calling, but it's that exclusive element that changes the dynamics of, of everything. It increases your overall profit. And, you know, it means. Less.
Uh, well the efficiency too. Cause you're having to talk to fewer people. Like we've got a guy we work with. I actually think, I don't think you know him, but I'm going to make an introduction. I talked to him today and I was like, Hey, what are your conversion rates? Like talk me through your conversion rates from leads. And he's like, Oh, for every five leads you're passing us, we're converting at least one of those to a sale. I was like, okay, that's great. Like, that's like, that's what you want to hear now. He's dialed it in. But like I talked to him three weeks ago and he's like, Oh, it's one of every seven. So he's like, yeah, one every five. Yeah. And so he's making, you know, whatever the average he's in Texas. So it depends on his market. So that's a 15 K job or a 25 K job depending.
So he's making really good money. Yeah. And I mean, up here, I'd say the average is going to be more like one in three is a good barometer, but for any lead source, one in five, especially in Texas, to your point, cause that's a way competitive. Yeah. So it's actually probably very similar to the one in three up here because it's markets odd, man. And that like, it's really taken a turn towards the insurance thing. And I mean, I know I've been doing that. I mean, the first company that we started doing this, you asked me how old this one was. I mean, the first one we started was like exclusively retail. A lot of my peers around here are retail and that's why I'm like, okay, those guys, they gotta have like the lead sources being for retail, I think is a better fit in that. here, uh, because one, you have to have like, or you have the set or closer model. Um, but everybody is looking to feed good reps, but the exclusivity element is where it really plays in because some models are completely predicated around that. For instance, there was a company that I was, I guess I won't mention their name, but their whole model is, and it's where I started at one of these companies and their whole model is there. They need to be. They need the leaves to be exclusive because they're operating on a hundred percent emotion because they're coming in at like 600% markup.
Oh, and is that based on product or is that based on market or a little bit of both?
A little bit of both in system. I mean, like in their product, they would say, but I believe that it's more. in an effort to just kind of like not be able to say, Hey, there's an apples to apples comparison here. Why are you charging me? Let's say a homeowner was to just say, wait a second, you're charging me 20 times more than this guy. And it's the same product. They could technically say, well, actually, uh, we have this color blend here. We have our own shingle from GAF or whomever. And, uh, and re entering reality. from what I understand, it's just a blend, a color blend. You know what I mean? And I'm like, oh yeah, you have your own, but I get it, man. They're smart, right? So then it's like, well, technically it's not apples to apples, but at any rate, they solely, and those of you listening to this, you can probably figure out what I'm talking about. And look, they're great. I'm not saying they're not, and I'm not saying they do bad work. I'm not saying that they, but they charge a lot. It's a fact. And then there are similar companies around here that do not quite as high, but also really, I mean, the market to your point. Um, but dude, they'll charge that wherever, like, yes, we're in the DMV. Yes. There are some really, really high end, uh, very affluent areas, but they could also go into like the less affluent areas and they're going to try. Yeah. You know what I mean? They're still going to try and they still have their price point that they're aiming for. So, um, it's nice that you have something that can offer that, but like, why do you think And this is where I want to really get into the nitty gritty. Why do you think it's so hard for people? Cause it's really is. I think it's the number one thing. Why do you think people just struggle so much with that? Trying to get leads like that. It's like this mythical Pandora's box of like, I can't figure this out and everyone struggles with it. Why? Why do you think that is?
I think because it requires a couple of things. It requires, and this is, these are two things people don't want to want to do, which is takes time. And it takes capital. And the harsh reality, the reason why we can sell leads at the cost that we sell them for is because we're deploying capital across the entire United States. And so what that does for us is we are able to use the algorithms that we have access to, to target people that we know have a higher likelihood to convert. And so that way we're not overspending for the price of that lead considering conversion points. So, and on top of that time, it's like when you and I started talking, I was like, Hey, don't judge me today. Judge me like nine months from now. I'm sorry. Nine, 90 days from now, because we're going to get into the market and we're going to continue to optimize how your particular campaign is working in, let's say Maryland. I don't know. And I think I also told you that, you know, Virginia is going to be very different. Like once you guys get into that market, because the types of buyers there are different.
So- We haven't even really gotten into Delaware like that either. But you're right, it's totally different. There's places in Delaware that are totally different than like Northern Delaware.
Yeah. And so I think the reason why people struggle with it is because you have to have time, you have to have capital, and the other thing too is you have to have expertise. So I've got people on my team from a lead gen standpoint that this is all they do all day and they've been doing it for decades. Generating leads. Yeah, that's all they do. And so you take that level of expertise, that's how we can create the unit economics of how do we get you, you know, kind of lead at a certain price that makes sense for your business. Cause you could, that's another thing too, is we're trying to make it really simple. It's like, you don't have time, time to like figure out how to, you know, drive traffic or how to do outreach in a certain way. And maybe you do, but a lot, a lot of times they're like, even the bigger businesses we work with, they'll, they'll do that, but they will still work with us because they want to diversify their lead flow. Right. Everyone does. You want to diversify. And what I tell our team is I was like, guys, what we're doing is we're, we are providing confidence because with opportunity comes confidence. And so the more opportunity, AKA the leads that we create for our clients, you guys, more confident you're going to be of how you scale your business. Yeah. So I don't, I don't, I mean, I don't know if that answers your question, but it's, it's expertise, it's time in the lead gen space. And then it's also capital. I think it does.
I think if anything, it speaks to like the initial why people struggle with it so much, especially when they're brand new is because they don't have capital. And I mean, that was an obvious like glaring, but you're right. I mean, it's why you see so many of these insurance restoration models pop up because they don't require any capital. They require boots on the ground. Me and my buddies are going to go start a company and we're going to go walk around. And I say that like not even hating man, like, because two companies ago when I first started the company that I started, it was me and one of my reps from the company that I was at before when I was the sales VP. And we went door to door. It was retail, but We still went door-to-door, you know, we had Angie's list and a couple other things, but we didn't have time to wait So we were literally door-to-door just going after it.
Well, let me ask you this So you so you saw that you got you see guys, you know barrier to entry is pretty low in our space, right? Very entry to start a business, you know some start. Yeah start how many guys plateau at a million or You know or sub three million right most do why is that?
Because they can't because they've They don't know how to get leads. They don't know how to get leads. They figured out how they can meander around and screw off to 3 million, or they've not been able to scale what they did that got them to the 3 million, which is going to take more leads.
I talked to a guy today, okay? This guy, very wealthy dude. He right now is in the process of, at any point in time, he's buying about 40 different home service businesses. He plays, so he plays primarily in HVAC and plays a little bit in a few other spaces, okay? And I was like, what's your buy box look like? And I thought he'd go, oh, I'm looking for, you know, five million EBITDA or something like that. Is it Victor? No, no, it's, I'll make an intro if you want. No, it's okay, it's a guy named Mark. And he was like, no, I look for like 300, maybe $400,000 in EBITDA. I was like, what? And he's like, yeah. He's like, cause I'm going to buy, I'm going to buy that three or 400,000, I'm going to buy them three X EBITDA. And then I'm going to take them to a million plus EBITDA and I'm going to get a 10 X return. Yeah. And he's like all, and all he's doing is like, it's three things. He's like, I'm, I'm introducing systems. I'm introducing how to talk to the homeowner and upsell them. And then I'm introducing leads. He's like, that's all I'm doing.
And he's like, and it sells them. Yeah. And so like, because he has the people to sell them to already lined up probably. Yep.
Isn't that interesting. So he doesn't even like, he doesn't really get in there. He just knows, he knows what these businesses are missing.
Lance is doing something like that. It might be who you're talking about. Lance.
No, I don't know.
Lance, Lance Bachman. He's yeah. He came on the, uh, Lance Bachman's come on the, the baller show and, uh, I'm sure we'll have him on this at some point, but that's, that's what he did. He started in, I think he started in HVAC. He's big in roofing now, but same thing, man. Like he's bought, sold, exited. And then now he's got a name for himself in doing that. And so now- People come to him. Yeah. He's got Bachman Capital and he even seeks out like, Hey, taking on one or two more. And it's always like, you know what I mean? I'm like, Oh, one or two more. All right. I better get in. And, uh,
But the model's smart because he's, he's targeting guys that are like 55 to 65. They don't have an exit plan. They've never really been able to make substantial money. It's like within like a year or two, they have this big exit because of him.
More like, you know, they're, you're, it's always going to be the smaller, like that, that actually the rep, what you just talked about, that one to three, one to five, maybe a main inhibitor. And, um, He's going to take them and to your point, but systems and leads actually, you know what, that's the biggest thing is actually, he is gotten really, really good at, uh, I don't know what he does exactly if I wish I did, but somehow some way he's figured out. I don't know what's an algorithm. I don't know. It's something to do with the internet, which I should probably, I sound like an ancient dinosaur, something to do with the internet and the interwebs. Right. But he's figured it out, man. And it's, it's like SEO, but He makes it work. And, uh, I guess you get that. So you get leads and teaches you how to run them. And to your point, he is going to sell it for more than probably 10 X. And, uh, that's the promises. He's like, he's not even his hustle. I don't know how much he puts it out there. So I'm like trying to like reel in the details, but it's impressive. I'll leave it at that. It's a very low investment on his part that I can see. And like these guys are basically signing everything over, but they're counting on this massive return and they've see him and that they're like, well, this dude's done it. So I'm going to trust that he can do it again. And so like, there's a lot of power in that. Oh, yeah. I mean like that, what a hustle. Like I sell this and then I'm like, Hey, I'm going to come and help you sell yours. And I've already done it once. So, you know, I can do it. Uh, in fact, why don't you let me, why don't you give me a certain percentage and I'll, um, I'll introduce you to the, uh, private equity firm I worked with.
And it just speeds up the whole thing. And to a lot of guys, they probably like that, you know, cause it just takes away the question mark of how do I do it? What do I do?
Yeah. I don't blame them, man. I get it. I get it. Honestly, man, I'm like, man, cause we're rocking this year on a, it's our scale year. And, uh, I mean, I say that because it's quite literally like I liquidated just about everything I could. To invest in the business. To invest back in the business, get into Delaware. We're going into Virginia behind two weeks now, something like that. I keep saying two weeks, but that's because there've been this test, this test, this test, this test. And finally we're at the last test and I've had to move it twice because of my wife and I, our schedule has been We're working on building a family. That's proved to be a little bit. Thank you. We're still working, but hopefully we'll get some cool news here soon.
I mean, you're going to be on your way to like, what, seven or eight kids? Is that your target?
Seven or eight kids? This is my, this will be my first, man. But I guess it depends on what, we got two dogs. Those are kind of like kids. That's cool. But I hope so. I hope, I hope at least this one, because I think it's going to provide some much needed You know, I've got a lot of my why has been originally it was like back against the wall for a long time. And one of my buddies, like even like a year ago, I was like, dude, you're backs against the wall anymore. I think that you like that, or you've just gotten used to like that mentality. He's like, but when you realize what you have now as a result. of the whole back-against-the-wall mentality, you'll see that what you have now that drives you is way more powerful than that. And I think you'll succeed way more. And he's right.
Kids change everything.
You have kids?
I have four. Yeah. Yeah.
I'm sure it motivates you in a way. We're done. We're done.
Yeah. Well, it's just, you think about, and I'm sure every parent can attest this, like you, you definitely, you're like, okay, I gotta provide. I gotta make money. But then there's this element of like, how do I, what am I projecting? What am I teaching my kids about the value of hard work and things like that, that they don't really see until later, you know? So, but yeah, I mean, your why definitely changes.
Yeah. Yeah. And so your why is going to be bigger than your how. So, um, you know, I don't think they get much bigger than having another little human being, you know what I mean? Completely dependent on you. But the, uh, which brings me to sort of my, my next point in that, You know, you're, you're pushing leads. Um, and what I think is arguably the most lead dependent, I guess, probably most home service industries. Yeah, they are. Yeah. Do you do anything besides the roofing industry?
So we work with, it's interesting. So since we started working with roofers, we've gotten people reaching out to us that just people know each other. I literally had a call yesterday, HVAC company, uh, South Carolina. I was like, Hey, I heard about this. Like, can you do this for us? And I was like, yeah, we can do it. Like you're, it's not going to look as pretty because we've got a great platform. People can just come on and they see all their leads. And it's funny, like we built this great platform and you've seen it, but then at the end of the day, people are like, yeah, just, can you, um, text me these leads, you know? Um, But the short answer is yeah. So HVAC, so the big ones are roofing, HVAC, plumbing, the big three. And then we do some in solar for certain markets. But we were talking about this before, solar is interesting. Solar is really interesting.
And I mean, I'm not, if you're a solar guy and you're listening to this and I don't know the other demographics, I just know ours. And for me, we had boots on the ground. I mean, you might see out there at PCR solar, like we were pushing last year, man, but I just pulled it back and was like, you know what? We're going to focus exclusively. Let's get this one thing down really, really well.
Solar is really good for markets where there's like preexisting demand or people are going like, okay, I want to do a solar or I'm, I'm building a house. So that's where we're seeing results, you know, but, um, it's not, especially like you were talking about financing, it's definitely changed.
Anything that has any sort of dependence, I guess, on financing right now is probably going to struggle at least a little bit. Yeah. So, I mean, that's, that's what I was getting into is just the overall market volatility in this 2024 market, man. Like how, what are you guys seeing?
Things changing or is it?
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Insurance companies, I mean, to, It's exhausting even talking about it. It's an easy excuse, you know, like, but you know, we're scaling, right? So we're getting bigger. We're doing a whole lot. We're seeing a whole lot. Like we've been so consistent in our lead getting ability, like the ability to knock a door, get someone to say yes. That conversion rate has just been consistently. Are you downloading?
Are you tracking that? A lot of people don't, but that's what you got to do in order to scale.
Yeah. And I mean, you know, and you got to know whether you like what you see or not. Right. And we've seen like, man, it's gone. Like we've done four times the work and had the work right there. So had we just done what we did the year prior in terms of conversion, we would be sitting at record. And I mean, record numbers. And it's so hard to see because you see the work that you've done, you've done it. You got them to say yes. And then whether it's the insurance companies tightening their belt, which they have in our, in our current Our current situation is heavily dependent on insurance restoration. And that's why we started this particular business was to try it. There were two businesses, the first of which was retail exclusive. We were hellbent on that was it, you know, and, uh, we started this, try it, see what's what much to the chagrin of my existing partner. And we went, which is ironic because now it's like what all he does, all he does, same market, all he does in insurance, but You know, back then it was, uh, it was still fortuitous that we started doing it because it was just, it was still, I would say it's not, it's never been Missouri or the Midwest or the South or Minnesota, anywhere that gets a ton of hail, but they'd still buy if you knew how to do it. And, uh, and it's no easier, a yes that you'll ever get than like, Hey, homeowner. Would you like to allow us to inspect your roof and see if we can find qualified damage? And if we do, well, then we're confident we can get this bought and paid for by your insurance carrier. Sure. You know what I mean? Yeah. Dude, it's, it's, it's, it's, they are doing things like, first of all, just denying that, you know, they're writing new policy language at renewal. They're saying they won't cover this. They won't cover that. I mean, and we've seen this, there's always been rumors of like, oh, it's going to change. There's no way this can keep up. Cause look, man, I can tell you right now in my industry, I've got like six or seven companies that have sprouted up under me and we're very much still in our inf infancy, know, we've had several kids or whatever, uh, guys that weren't core value fits, you know, leave. And then they go get licensed by taking a test that's open book in, in Maryland and their business owners and roofing. And the barrier for entry is I have a truck and a ladder and I'm chucking a truck and I'm willing to, or maybe even like me and three of my buddies are willing to get up there. And, and you know, who knows, man, who knows what chaos they go up there and do, but we know for a fact that there are companies out there that will have no issue Mostly not companies, mostly trucks in the trucks or a couple of kids or whatever that have no qualms about getting up on a roof and creating the same damage that they're then trying to go and allege that the storm did, and then pass that off to the insurance carrier. And it makes it way harder for legitimate businesses like I'm trying to build a scale and exit. So I have no use for any of that. Like I can't sell that. You know what I mean? Well, your name is also 100%. I mean, you know, not to mention the spirit, spiritual ramifications, like I'm in sobriety, like a multitude of reasons why I just need to stay away from that. But I need to also know it exists to protect me and my business. But my point is, is we were always under the expectation of like, this could change at any moment because we know that they're going to automatically have this negative disposition of anyone doing this could be, right? But they're just the biggest scumbags ever, they being the insurance carriers. They're just the biggest scumbags ever. So the nerve of them to like, yes, those guys exist, but we work our butts off to make sure we do things the right way. It makes it way harder. It makes us have to do way more work to get things bought.
The homeowner doesn't recognize that. The homeowner talks to those guys that frankly shouldn't be installing the roof. And then they talk to your team and they still don't see the difference.
I think they do. Um, it's gotta be that they do get a chance to talk to the two because you also have to understand that the insurance carrier themselves has no problem. They're the biggest. Just it's unreal some of the things like they'll slander you in a heartbeat. So it's like in a heartbeat, in a heartbeat.
Like you specifically, your business.
They will literally go to a homeowner and it could just be a Tuesday and they just feel like, screw these guys. They could see you frequently and just get pissy and be like, I don't like these guys. And quite literally. Just some guy with a, Some guy that's taken an hour long training because now he's a roof inspector. And I told him that, mind you, I'm talking from a place of like, not ignorance, but investigation. Like our first ever situation where we needed to call into an investigator who was talking to one of my rats. And I took this so serious. I'm like, oh man, you know, I'm like, do I need to fire this guy? What's going on? He's like, guys from New York. He's like, listen, I don't want to see a kid get fired for something I don't think he did. And I don't think he's smart enough to do. And I'm like, First of all, that was funny. But second of all, he's like, your mother could be a roof, a roof inspector. He's basically alluding to like, look, these, these, these roof inspectors for these companies go out, take an hour long course or day long course. And now they're qualified to inspect the roof. And he said, the other one I'm investigating, the contractor was on the roof with homeowners. And they're still alleging that the contractor made damage and the homeowner's like vehemently like, no, dude, he didn't do, I was wondering with me. And, but they still sent it in, they still sent it in to be investigated. So the insurance carriers, in my experience, will do quite literally anything to- To avoid paying. Prolong, confuse, frustrate, or the three Ds, deny, delay. And what's the third one? Deny, delay and distract, right? They're all about that.
Well, I mean, this is also happening in the real estate market as well. Is it really? Well, have you seen, I mean, this is a little bit different, right? But like the cost of insurance along the coast or in Florida for that matter.
In Florida. Yeah, Florida is insane. They pulled out. So that's a perfect example. So they being the insurance carriers were like, dude, we're getting our asses kicked. We're paying all this money and we don't like paying money. They're like taking money. We don't like when we have to pay it. Mind you, it's kind of the whole reason it exists. But so they start pulling out of there first, which creates this whole like, what's going on? And we got to see it in real time. Like, damn dude, like the lobbying, the legislation, like that's where things are really going to change. And so some of my peers up here, like, dude, that's where, that's where we really need to make a difference. And they're right. but you just don't ever think you're gonna have to deal with it until you do. And then you start to hear they're pulling out of Cali and a couple of other coastal places, which is driving up the insurance rate to an ungodly, like more than our mortgage in those areas.
I mean, there's people I know who own like a second house on the coast and they're like, I don't want it because I can't handle the insurance cost.
And it's disgusting and it's scary because it's like, where does that stop? Like if they just pull out everywhere, And where are they? Usually I feel like they make up elsewhere, but whether you believe it or not, like to me, I've seen the weather whack act a little wacky, whether it's like consistently does this every couple, I don't know. I don't give a shit, but it's definitely the Midwest factually has been getting pounded in a way that it just hasn't. in my lifetime. I have peers that are out there.
Florida in the last couple of years. Florida, Texas.
Texas is getting just pummeled by hail. And so they have to pay, pay, pay, pay, pay. And whether they want to admit it or not, like, and mind you, they have no qualms with just playing dirty because they can do whatever they want. They live and operate in a world of their own. And I can say this again from a place of experience and just watched, and mind you, I used to sell insurance. So like, I know, you know, and I'm not saying everybody's bad, that's an agent or not, but I will say there's a huge conflict of interest in most of these areas where perhaps the adjuster is being persuaded and or bonused or their pay is affected in whatever way by like what they're allowed to pay out, what they're not supposed to pay out, whatever caps they have. You know, if you get too many claims filed and you're an agent and they're frivolous claims, it affects your bottom line, like all of these things. Right.
And it doesn't feel, it doesn't feel right. How does this play out? You zoom out a couple of years.
Right now it's playing out, uh, in a way where they're sending the homeowners 30 to 90 day letters. So I think legislation, I think Zoom, I think that you need to go to retail. That's what I think. You think what? I think retail. That's if they get their way. Cause like, here's what's happening right now, right now is, um, I just don't see what they're going to do in the markets that like just get perpetually hit. Like, what can you do? Right?
Like, I mean, have you heard of any of the arguments for, um, I'm not a very big government guy, but like the government having their own, you know, insurance,
I think that's something like the private insurance thing. Something's going to have to happen. Cause what I was just getting at is by the way, right here, right now, what they're doing, and they just started this, and this was on the news in Boston and they're doing it here left and right now. And I think they're going to continue to do it majorly. And it's going to cause a lot of guys here locally, some real problems, but it's also creating a market for roofing that didn't exist in that. They're sending letters out to homeowners saying, look, your roof is 15 or 20 years old or whatever. It's just old. We zoom by, we flew by, we Google map by, whatever. Can't see shit, mind you. I can't see anything. It's the irony, but like they'll come out physically on a roof that we know is torched and they're like, nah, I don't see anything. But then they'll use like a grainy image on Google maps and they say, oh, your roof is destroyed. You need to replace it in the next 30 days or we drop you.
Really? I've got any letters and do they and do they allow you to take an insurance claim on that or no?
You think they want that to be the case? I'm just I'm just yeah, it doesn't make sense a great question, right because you're right like you would think like No, but legally speaking. Well They haven't changed any policy language or updated anything or anything like that. Like you were covered until they sent this notice. So let's say there's a storm day prior to that, what would be to stop you from at least trying, like, all right, well, there was a storm. People don't know how to fight that. They don't know what to do.
So we're going out. So you get calls from people going, I gotta do this.
Not enough, not enough. We're really, I went on to talk to you more about it. Like, how do we capitalize on this? And I don't know enough about the way in which you procure and so on, but like, we were talking to, I don't know if you know Adam Binsman, the roof strategist, He's on our board and just how can we get the word out there short of like TV or radio or whatever, but like I've cut some commercials recently and just like, of course, boots on the ground. Like we have our guys armed with the actual letters where it's like, Hey, you know, have you seen this? And then hopefully, you know, we can try that the worst case they say no. And we're back at square one, which is okay. Well, we'll take care of you on the retail side, but. It is undoubtedly no matter what going to create a market where for retail, um, it's going to just ripple its way through. They're going to have to, they're just basically saying like, we're just going to send you this letter before you come to us with a claim and tell you that like, you got to pay for this. That's what they're doing. They're just getting hammered across the nation. So in these areas where they're like, oh, and I got to be honest, like new companies are sprouting up left and right doing what we do. Every time a new company starts up, they get a couple of sales reps and those sales reps become wise guys that think they can do it. And they're probably even unsavory guys out there that like breed other unsavory guys. And so I get it. There's way less company companies like my own. And I say that to mean like that follow a set of core values that are truly trying to do things the right way, but even trying to build a business, a real business, and we'll still get. Thrown under the bus by the insurance carriers, but I don't take that to heart I know that the adjusters don't know us and even if they do they don't care, right? There are certain adjusters out there that are super cool And there are other ones out there that just like have it out for you, and I don't know what else to say It seems silly. Yeah, there's one in Delaware right now. We're having to send legal correspondence to because it's just We know for a fact he's misbehaving and he's slandering us to the homeowner and to our faces, but he won't put it in writing So either you get it, you know what I mean? Like my wife's an attorney. So she's like, okay, great. What do we have? And I'm like, well, he told my ref, he told the homeowner, like, they'll say like, oh yeah, they did. Or it's whatever they'll allege, but that's just so gross. You know what I mean? Because my guys in Delaware wouldn't know how to do that. Like we've, we've really insulated them in such a way where it's just like they're borderline retail reps. You know what I mean? Like they can inspect and if it's a home run, great. But they just, they wouldn't know how to do that if they wanted to. Yeah. Yeah. And so I can confidently say like, that's just not happening. You know? Yeah. I mean, I would be so blown away if, if one guy learned on his own, some crap that he saw from somebody maybe, but I just know it isn't happening because we, first of all, we require recordings of these inspections, you know, and if we, we look at everybody's pictures, we do a lot of, effort to keep that from being a thing because of our goals. And so, but it doesn't stop them from doing that. And they'll say that because they count on over half of, if you, if you did do that and they just say the words, say engineer, and that's the implication. Now I'm going to bring in an engineer. Like we'll stay and fight all day long. Like, great. Bring them out. Right. And we've seen them get bought and you know, more often than not, they're going to side with them because it's my belief. It's because they pay them, but we actually have seen several get bought and like, they're not usually prepared for us, but we're always going to sit and fight always. We're never going to turntail and run, but I've seen several companies that have, and it's like, well, now we know what you did, you know? And so I don't know, they're probably counting on that. But to your point, if I was to fast forward five years from now, and you asked me five years ago, I think every five years, everybody's like, dude, it's funny you say five years, because most people up here are always like, five years, man, this is gone, this is gone. And 20 years ago, they were saying that, and yet, you know, guys are still figuring out a way. So I think there'll always be a cat and mouse, and as long as there's insurance and it's private insurance, they'll find ways to, and I hope they do, man, because screw them. They don't want to pay their stuff. They don't want to take care of people. They get caught left and right in litigation, and no one talks about it. State Farm just had that one and how they had, they got slammed for slander and were sued. And the guy won for an egregious slander, like getting him locked up, all this crazy crap, man. That guy won, got paid a ton of money. Then they got paying this year for 700,000, something like that. Something nominal compared to what they profited last year. So ultimately, We'll take this 700, $800,000 fine because you say we basically didn't pay what we should have paid to our customers. In other words, our customers are hardworking, paying customers. We deny their claims outright, left and right. And we're paying this fine.
$700,000 is nothing.
Well, they made like 12 billion. Yeah, I know.
It's a drop in the bucket. Not even that.
Think of what that business made versus them paying, because that's what they weigh. They say, well, We saved $2 billion by having to pay $700. You know what I mean? We just said, if we would have paid for everything we had to pay for, my gosh, we would have spent $2 billion. Instead, we spent $700 in fines. Take that all day long. It's very similar to Big Pharma. It's gross. And so every time, my roots are in retail. You got me talking about something I get pissed off about, because I hate that. It makes me so angry. I want to fight back. But you can't fight. You know, we're the little guys, man. And they don't give a shit about us. And they certainly don't give a shit about their customers. It's so sad, dude. The only way in which they care about their customer is the retention. And even then, I mean, it's just, there are some decent companies out there. Very few, but some. Travelers has been good. USAA has been good. They've definitely shifted a little recently. I don't know if they got a new higher up or whatever, but USAA has been good. Travelers has been good. Nationwide used to be great on your side, right? All state has been abysmal. Like they just don't care. They just don't care. State farm is notorious for being, state farm and all state are by far statistically and egregiously the worst.
And- Who do you have insure your house?
Erie. Do you? And it's funny because Erie is fair, but as of recent, there's rumor that they're not even going to be, there's a rumor and it's a rumor and some says unsubstantiated up till this point that we had a client tell us that they got a letter saying that Erie is no longer going to be covering roofs. So I don't really, okay. Uh, that's news to me. So, um, I can't say that I know that to be a fact I'm an Erie, uh, customer and look, we've had a longstanding Like a little bit of a feud with Erie because Erie has different offices and we had a little bit of a disagreement over a job up north in an office. And what ended up happening was our general counsel, basically they put something in writing that they don't normally do. So they alleged like we talked about and we're like, well, that's just not normally we don't get to like smack their hand. Right. But they accidentally like. did put it in writing. And my wife was like, Oh, I don't think so. You know? And so she went, well, here's the facts, right? That you're alleging this. And we know what that means. And of course, once I start telling her what the implications are behind all these things, and then they're like, well, we want you to file Mr. Customer, a police report, because that's where it goes is if they say, okay, we think this is mechanical, mechanical, then becomes like, we were bringing out an engineer engineer comes out and says, and they do their pseudoscience because they've got no real, like if you have that ever went to court, They've got no, like my wife's done like diligent. She's an attorney. Right. And so she's like, this is all BS pseudoscience nonsense. Like they can't definitively prove unless you're on video. They don't, they haven't, they don't have any idea. Right. But they don't care. They don't care. And yet that's their defense. They bring them out and then. But what we care about the most is the homeowner. So if like, you don't know what you're up against and the homeowner doesn't know, and then they start seeing all of these things and you have an unsavory insurance carrier or adjuster that is willing to slander you and say, yeah, you know, typically when we see this, it usually means somebody went up there and did this. They might even say as much as like, yeah, I think your guy up here tore up your roof. I mean, I've seen some egregious stuff. You've got to be careful on that. You have to know that there are those people out there. Of course you have to make sure that people working for you would never, right? Like no matter what, sign this, sign this, record yourself, do all these things. I mean, we've taken extreme measures. It doesn't stop them from saying it, but it makes us feel better. Like knowing, okay, you can allege that all you want, but you don't know what we have up our sleeve. You know what I mean? Like, but you get a new guy that forgets or doesn't get this sign. We have so many precautions. or doesn't remember to tell the homeowner, like they get all excited. They get a first couple of one or two, forget to tell the homeowner, like, here are the next steps. Here are the possibilities here. Cause they haven't seen it yet. And then on their very first one, they forget to say like, Oh, by the way, I got my digital inspection. I got this signature. Like if this happens and all it takes is that adjuster for that new guy. I just saw it who I'm sure said something unsavory. And now that homeowners believing this company. over him, right?
And I don't, I don't know that he said anything, but that goes back to why, you know, training and mentorship and SOPs and all of that. Like, I mean, you talk about why do people get stuck under 3 million? Like just dealing with like, how do you train people up to do that?
To set expectations, to deal with all of the variables, all the what ifs, how much money do you lose? And they're counting on you losing it. They don't care. You think they care. They only care if there's consequences behind it. Otherwise they don't care. From an ethical moral standpoint, they don't care. They don't care. So I don't know. I went on a long standing tangent because that pisses me off. It's just, you know, we're very much the little guy and it's like these people, what really blows me away is when the consumer, but I get it. They don't know. They don't know. They don't know. They're like, well, this is my insurance company. They're taking care of it. And they don't care about you. And like, for me, even with Erie, like, like I said, I mean, look, we were getting hit left. And right after we were able to prove this happened and they had to pay and made us very unpopular in this particular office. And we can, we were even building a case there, man, like look at all the, look at all of the, uh, coincidentally, you know, we had this huge rash and upticks and, uh, you know, seeing that, but from this one office from this one company right after that consistently, you know what I mean? My wife's like, you know, she's smart. She's like, getting things in order. And then it kind of like fizzled out and we're just like, whatever, man. But bottom line is they don't care. They'll wait you out. They have more money. They have more of this. They have more of that. And you have to have insurance. You have to. So I would encourage people at least go with one of the ones that are going to actually try and work with people and take care of you that aren't actively working to screw you. And I hate to say that, but it's so true. Basically anybody that's, I mean, look, I'm so disappointed to hear that about Erie, man, like that they would possibly, I don't know that to be true. I don't know that to be true, but I know that to be true for at least four or five other companies that have already sent out letters. Geico, for example, I've got it in my back pocket. This poor lady, single mom, state farm, told her, we don't need to pay for your whole roof. I know you have a leak. We're going to pay for a couple of shingles on the back. She went to war with these people. We tried to help her. They wouldn't pay, wouldn't pay, wouldn't pay, wouldn't pay. Finally, she goes to the CEO, writes him this, writes him that. She was the CEO.
Of Geico?
State Farm. But I don't know that she actually got to talk to him. Yeah, but she tried. She really was like, I know what to do here and nothing. And so she dropped him. This is after like six months. And this poor single mom, she's trying to fix a freak, like the water's coming in and we're trying to advise her. And then she goes with someone else. They send out, State Farm sends out another roofer on their list, mind you, on their list. They send them out. And that roofer's like, we can't patch this, man. It's got to be fixed. And they're like, oh no, we don't think so. So she's like, this is ridiculous. Your own people that you have on your list. Say it needs to be. So you're fighting with it. She now was then fighting with them because we're not out of the picture. We, we, we, we tried the first time.
What are the consequences? I mean, we're like diving deep in this. What are the consequences to, let's say a Geico or state farm if they don't like, let's say they don't fix the roof. They say, no, you don't do it. And that roof collapses in or something like that. Are they liable?
And that's a great question for an attorney or I think until we see a massive class action or a big like joining of hands throughout the roofing industry, I don't think anything's going to happen, but I do see a lot of people getting smarter. So they count on everybody being against one another. Yep. Whereas like, if the powers that be would really just like definitively stand up and say, well, hold on now, there's a whole lot of us. And if we just put our money together and, you know, start advocating for ourselves and our consumers, our customers here, like, and we do a class action per se hidden where it hurts. Now we might actually get their attention where they won't do things like drop these customers at the drop of a hat. I mean, how disgusting, you know what I mean? Like these people don't know. They're just like, yeah, we're not paying for roofs this year, man. Our bottom line sucks. Send everybody a letter. And it's almost like they're in cahoots because like, it's not just one company, you know, four, five, six, seven companies. They just all start issuing out letters here in the Maryland saying like, you know what? Your roof's a little old. We saw it on zoom. We saw it on a drone. We saw it on Google maps. Come on, bro. You saw it on Google maps. Like how great, come on. Erie sent out investigators and they're like, yeah, you need to fix this. You need to fix this. Why are you doing that? It's they're hurting for money like anybody else, but. The dropping thing is just so perplexing, but it's clearly an evidence, excuse me, it's clearly an evident that they're looking to just preemptively have you pay for the roof for them. Have they, that's the bottom line. Yeah. Because it's not like, it's like, we're going to get you more higher premiums wherever they're going to drop you. But it's all obviously an effort to say like, these roofs are costing us so much. We're done. We're just going to send you a letter and say, Hey, your roof is 15 years old. You've got a fixer. We drop you. And if we all do it, They all got to fix them. And it would be probably fortuitous for us to just say like, well, it's a lot of roofs that are going to need to get done in the Maryland area, but it's so disgusting for the homeowner. Great for you though in retail, man. And so, and I don't mean to say that I say that jokingly, but like, if there was a way for you to target, uh, those types of individuals where you just, even just calling out and educating, I don't
I mean, it'll be interesting to see how it plays out. Is this just a moment in time where this is happening or has this become widespread? Because then people like myself will figure out a way to, how do you target those individuals and get a message in front of them to turn that into a sales opportunity?
I've seen it up and down the East Coast. I've even seen Lee mentioning it on his content recently. Really? His most recent content. Yeah. I mean, I've been screaming about it, but I saw him mentioning it. So I'm like, well, it's in Florida. Which Florida is a wacky.
Florida is. Yeah. I mean, you talk about demand, like there's a ton of demand in, um, in Texas, Florida. We ran a, we ran a small campaign just in like, um, I think it was like the Naples area, which is like, mind you, it's not like the biggest area so much. There's so much demand for like roof replacements just in that tire market, like all the time, you know?
Their market is different in that they changed the legislation. They changed the rules as far as I believe door to door goes. I just don't think you can't like, you can't help them. I don't know. I'm not in Maryland. I'm not in Florida. I don't remember, but I do know they changed some things. And I know for a while there, it was like door to door is out. But I, now I see Lee back out there. doing his content. So I'm like, well, maybe he must be, he's not that dumb or he would just be filming that. So like, it must be, um, there's always, but to your point, man, we'll have to just see what happens, but who knows five years from now, I'd like to say we're doing the same stuff we've always been doing, but just differently.
Yep.
Cause every time someone says it's going to be gone in five years, whatever, for me personally, in five years, I'd like to see it be a hybrid here. I'd like to be in a storm market. I will be in the store market. Five years from now, we'll have turned hopefully at least twice. But in pursuit of that, we'd like to be in a store market next year to where we're not dealing with this. I want to be somewhere where it gets hit so obvious that it's just like, what are you going to say? What are you going to do?
What do you want to be? Do you have thoughts on it?
Right now, I mean, I would love to be in St. Louis because, and I know he's like, what? But that's because I have a friend of mine there, we're good buddies. That would just be cool to be where he's at, but that's not, it's also, they've gotten hit with life-changing storms. One, two, three, or four in the last two years.
We don't get storms like we used to. So one of the guys I work with in Texas sent me
That's where he probably thought I was going to say is Texas. And I'd love to be in Texas. And I would think we could be in Texas, but.
He sent me a picture. He was like, I was like, Hey man, I'm sending his leads. I hadn't heard from like in a day or two. I was like, is everything okay? He's like, yeah, man, we just got like pummeled by the storm. And he sent me a picture of, of, um, Hill. That was like the size of a golf ball.
And dude, some of them are like grapefruit size. It's crazy. It's out of control. And they haven't been, you know, I just figured like, oh, that's just how it's always been. I don't think it is, man. I think in the last like five, 10 years.
It's gotten, it's gotten worse. It's gotten worse.
That's the thing. Like whether you believe in, I don't give a shit, but like undoubtedly the weather is wacky. It's wacky. And so Minnesota, it gets crazy hail. It hasn't had it this year. Um, but like the year before last life changing, like some of these guys, but to that point, what do those guys do? So let's say you were my size, but then we got this like life changing storm and because you were equipped, and you were doing like 10, but now when the storm hits. What do you do?
Do you staff up? Do you bring guys in?
I mean, that to me is yet to be what I've seen is guys that just got the right time, right place. Like they were already scaling up to say 20. I got a few more guys, but I think even the guys here that are capable of doing like five to 10 with the right weather are going to do double that. Yeah. You know what I mean? So like, that's just so deceptive because it's like, oh man, $20 million. Well, yeah, your 20 is our 10. You know what I mean? Cause we just don't have the work. Like we're fighting calling, like we're getting half our stuff bought if we're lucky. And you know, you can argue like, well, you could do this. You could, I'm just saying, right? Like it's a huge, if you're doing insurance and then it's like, well, we need to add more of a retail element. We need to change. So I think here in our market, it's going to be more of a hybrid where it's like, hey, we can try this, but if not, maybe we get half and we upsell. I love retail, but I also want to make sure that we have a firm grip in one of those store markets, whether it's Minnesota, the Midwest, or ideally Texas, or maybe both. But it's so hard to trust somebody enough to run a market. It's going to be hard enough to just find one person to find that person and put them there to stake our whole like, because again, that market- what we know we can accomplish in one year, we know we can again, double on the right market. So it's entirely, it's entirely plausible that we get 10 in year one because we know our systems are more everything, right? Like why can't we, if we get the storms and that 10 is hopefully two.
Let's just get some crazy storms next year. I would love to.
I'm hoping, I'm hoping this year, but good. But this year again, like it would have to be on definitive clear cut. Like, of what they're doing here. You know what I mean? But God willing, no matter what, God willing, things iron out, the economy gets straight. You know what I mean? There's an election year. We already know no matter what in an election year, things get wacky. You know what I mean? Especially in marketing, right? Cause all the ad space and stuff gets driven up because- Oh, we've seen it. We've seen it.
Yeah. Ads, ads are typically more expensive in, I shouldn't say typically, are. Right. More expensive in election year. You know why that is?
They're buying it all.
They're buying it all. Yeah. Yeah. They're buying all the eyeballs.
Yeah. They're buying all the eyeballs, driving it all up. So the guys like him and then us are trying to purchase it for everything's more expensive. So. It's a losing battle, but somehow, so what about you? Where do you see, so you've already built, scaled, exited. Now this company is still very much in its infancy.
Yeah. Yeah, it is. But, um, no, I think my viewpoint, like, is your question, where do I see things going or where do you see things going one and two, where do you see you five years? Oh, that's a great question. Um, and you in the business, of course, in the business, uh, for my business, like I tend to, I tend to think about where can I bring the most value? Like what pain, what pain am I solving? So when I, like, that's why I'm really hot on this, this current offer, which name of our business, I don't even think we talked about it. It's, it's, it's very on the nose. It's roofing leads now.
Roofing leads now, which is, I know we're roofers, but come on.
But it's, I like it because we're solving a pain point for people that really need it. And it's really built around the customer. And so if my customer, AKA the Ken's of the world, if I can help you make more money, then I make more money. And I just... I I feel like we're similar in this way. Like I don't feel really good if I'm like selling something I don't believe in. I just don't, I don't sleep well. I don't feel good. I don't, it's like you're avoiding somebody. You're like, gosh, my product isn't good. And so I'm, I'm not really even focused five years. I'm focused like the next 18 months. It's like, how do I, how do I make this really successful? And how do I help as many roofers as I can? Because the, I know I've got a great product, but it's like, how do I overcome the skepticism? So it'd be such that's everything that is everything. But I think, I mean, like yourself, you've made a bunch of introductions.
And so I think that's how you do it. Yeah. I mean, your product has to speak for itself, but when it does, then inevitably you get in with the right. Or even just anybody, but definitely with the right guy. That's like plugged in with everybody else. And that guy screams from the rooftop because they're going to want to. I mean, even if it's like me who I'm like, you know, I'm not naive, like, okay, Hey, there's, it's fortuitous for both of us. Like, if I can help you, you help me. And like, I told you like, Hey man, let's see if we can have this ecosystem here. Like wonderful. Uh, but even if that wasn't the case, you can't help, but like tell somebody because it is so hard to find a good lead source. Like you almost want to scream it from the rooftops. Like, dude. but then you also want to keep it to yourself because you don't want them to get watered down. So there's definitely a half, you know what I mean?
There's like, ah, that's the thing too is like, but as the platform gets bigger, the, the, the amount of people on it, we're still going to be able to deliver a solid amount of leads because your buying power continues to increase. And so we, as we grow, we'll be able to deliver even more to people, which might sound backwards to everybody, but it's like the more people and the more money on the platform, the more the platform can deliver. Right. But where do I see things going? It's interesting. There's a lot of talk. I'm also marketing in tech. If I had to look at where am I most bullish, I'm very, very bullish on the trade as a whole, whether that's roofing, construction, any capacity. Yeah, there really are. Because they're spending money there, aren't they? Well, they're spending money. It's also very hard to disrupt. you know, from an AI perspective, like you are seeing like machines out there that will lay a roof. Like you've seen these videos. I'll have to send them to you. But I think, you know, I grew up and like all my closest friends in my space were all like blue collar, whether it was a GC or they're a contractor or excavator. So I kind of grew up in that space. And I think if you go more macro, the cost of education is increasing and the value of the education it argues decreasing. And so like, I've got kids and like, I'm telling my son, I'm like, Hey, he's 12. Like, Hey, in a couple of years, like you're going to go work on a job site because you're going to learn, you're going to learn business. You're going to learn how to communicate. You're going to learn how to trade. Because I think that those skills are going to become exponentially more valuable, you know, because unfortunately, and you know, this people don't want to work like they used to, you know, like why no one knows how to do shit. And they don't. Yeah. Like what, why is that? You know, why do welders make $300,000 a year? Because the demand is so high.
for such a low amount of people that want to do it.
And they want to do it. And so what do I think is going to happen? I think the trade is going to continue to grow. I think it's very hard to disrupt it from an AI. I mean, look here, and I know we're kind of going all over the place on this, but look where PE is spending.
That's what I was just going to say.
Look where money is going. Money goes where it's treated best. It's going into home services more than it probably ever has. It's very insulated. It's huge demand. People don't want to work in that space like they did. So when they find companies that have figured out that problem, they'll deploy capital there. Right?
So, um, that's like for me and for the market where I think things are going, which is good both ways, because I believe you're a hundred percent right. The insurance is always going to be insurance, but no matter what people are going to need Ruth, people are going to need side.
They're going to need a roof. Yeah. You're going to need a roof.
Yeah. And I mean, you know, and then when you get back into retail, you're talking siding windows, all of those things. And that's typically the leads to like, where it's like, even for yourself, it's like, okay, we're going to start looking at windows siding. Right. Like, cause you need all of those things too, then like, okay, sure. So, I mean, it's just such a, to your point, man, like 10, 15 years ago, it was like, oh, you got to go to college and work on computers.
I know, but now, now it's like, people are like, I don't know if I need to. I know I sit on these, um, I'm on like a college board or I don't even want to call it a board. It's like, I'm in this advisory board for a university. And that's the thing I'm telling. And it's, it's widely known amongst everybody. It's like, I paid my way through college. Like that's how I got into the space. My parents were like, Hey, you know, you don't, you know, we love you. We've got a bunch of siblings. We'll have any money for you. I was like, okay, great. I'll work my way through college. Can you imagine trying to work your way through college right now? Forget about it, you know? And so, unfortunately, the economy is becoming much less about your ability to do something and much more about who are your parents. And that's really sad.
It's really sad. You know? And yeah, it is sad. It is sad. Cause the folks that really, anyhow, don't get me started, but I digress. Anyhow. Yeah, I hear you. And I mean, honestly, man, I, I haven't used my degree. I had a blast. I took out a loans, finally paid those off, but I didn't.
Did you get a lot out of it? Let me, let me, let me ask you this. Did you network? Yeah. So a lot of it's like the networking.
And I think for me, that was a big, it helped me come out of my shell a lot. I also inherited a strong drug habit, so that didn't do well, but other than that.
Opportunity for growth.
Opportunity for growth. That's right. That's right. From that, I became much stronger. And it's not because of college. It was a car accident. It doesn't matter. Timing. But, but I agree the networking and just, strengthening my resolve in terms of like my ability to create relationships and stuff like that. You're right. You're a fraternity and all that experience. Yeah. It's a blast. Don't get me wrong, but it's hard to be like, well, I used my degree. Like, well, did I really, or did I more use, like you said, I got a lot of, I mean, dude, networking and all of that. Now for me, like I'm literally writing a book on relationships and how much I value, like the ability to forge them, create them, maintain them. Like it's just, Look at us, right?
And if we can- I mean, dude, you were so kind to me. You didn't know me from Adam and just got an introduction from Travis and you're like, yeah, let's talk.
You never know, man. You never know. It's like, it could be, what's the worst case? You get a good relationship with somebody and I don't know, nothing comes of it, but you still, you never knew who that guy might introduce you to. You know what I mean? Yeah, it's true. And here it is too where it's like, well, if this pans out, If this works out, it's not costing me anything but time, but like, if it works out, we can have a wonderful symbiotic relationship in which I'm able to help you. You're able to help me. And I'd be happy to do that because frankly, if these works out, I'm going to be championing you to everybody, right? Like I'll be screaming this every day on here. You might even see him be a, what do you call those things? Like, uh, sponsored by what was it again? It's right on the nose too. Like roofing leads now. I knew it. So you can't forget that bro. Same time. Cause I'm like, actually, why am I asking him what this is? Cause it's such a simple name. You can't forget it.
You know, the other thing too, this is going to sound funny. The reason why I like it so much is like, I text you. I like when leads come in, it's, it's really nice. Like being a person, like when you text somebody, they actually look forward to your text message. Do you know what I'm saying? Cause like we hate our phones so much now.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Dylan's out there actually. And he's like, does he think I don't, I said, I'm sure he doesn't. And he's like, cause I said, I said, yeah, he's calling now. And he was like, what does he think I'm not calling? I said, I just literally, I'm literally saying to you, to him when I was walking out, like, oh, I saw him on the phone. Like, no, I didn't. But anyhow, back there was where our call. Back there, yeah. Yeah, Dylan's the last holder. We had to, over the winter, dissolve the few. We had, at one point, like five or six teams. Dylan was the call center manager. Yeah, man, but, you know, we were throwing, we spent a lot of money last year on a lot of different things. And, you know, we came out up 20% year over year, and that's great, but it's not what our goals were. And there was a lot of things we tried that we were just like, and the irony is we reduced all of that to its simplest form we thought. But then there's the CRM, there's this, and then of course, there's just all these different variables, but it's all good, man. I mean, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. And I say that in jest, but I genuinely mean, I know this year is really difficult for everybody, unless you're in one of those areas where you just happen to do storm work and you're getting pummeled, then it's great. But guess what? It's been hard for me. I'm sure it's been difficult for you, but that makes you,
You heard of Seth Godin, do you know Seth Godin? He's like one of the OG marketers out there. He wrote this book where he talks about this thing called the dip, which is like every, in a normal market, every three, four, five, six, seven years, somewhere in there, not recently, it's been like 15 years, you have a bad year, right? But in that bad years, that's when you get really down deep and dirty into your business and you figure out, what are the things that I've been allowing, that I've been avoiding, that I can no longer avoid? And so it actually hardens your business. It makes you a better business person, even though it's really difficult in the moment.
We're doing that for sure this year. And I say that, I don't know, I probably make, Wes would say I'm a lot harder on myself and a lot less, but in all seriousness, it's also afforded us the opportunity and time to be like, all right, you know, sure. We're a little slower than we'd like to be ideally because, you know, I'd always like to be busier, but it's also going to offer us, let's take advantage of this, this moment. Yeah. Right. Like, okay. So if we're going to switch CRMs, we're doing it right now.
But that's why you're going to grow. It's like a lot of people will get stuck in the difficulty.
Like how do you use the difficulty? Sure. That I agree with 100% man. Like how can we silver lining this? I tell my dad that, all the time, it doesn't work for me anymore. But he'd be like, oh, well, so-and-so or whatever the situation is. I'm like, well, how do we flip that, dad? Make it a positive. So you don't have any choice, you gotta deal with it. But maybe we could turn that into a positive experience for the customer where now they were initially upset, but now they're giving us a good review because of how we responded. Man, I think we could literally sit here. I want to know first and foremost, if we have anybody, because we'll sit here and talk till tomorrow. You know what I mean? We're talking about all kinds of different stuff. I'm having a great time over here, but in all seriousness, if you want to get a hold of You are Roof Leads Now, what's the easiest way?
Gosh, okay, you can find me, you can just email me, Zach at roofingleadsnow.com. I'm also on Instagram and Facebook. I think I'm in your group as well.
Yeah, you are. Yeah, yeah, he's in Bacardi Lawyers, but still, I mean, Zachary Williams, Zachary?
Yeah, I gotta change that. So I listed Zachary. Well, I need to listen. I need to change it to Zach, but yeah, Zachary Zachary Williams.
And Zachary Williams, you'll see his pretty mug in there, but go to the email specifically, I think would probably, but yeah.
Oh yeah. And we'll also, anybody who signs up through Ken as well, it gets a discount, which is great.
Yes. Promo code and things like that.
Yeah. So if you use promo code, Ken, when you sign up, so right when you sign up, I think we Matt will match your, your spend up to like three K is what we'll do. So we literally double. So we had, you brought somebody yesterday. Yeah. Yeah. He got, he got four leads his first day, which is awesome. Yeah.
That is great. And I mean, again, man, I know this is coming off of like salesy or whatever, but I can tell you, no one, I don't think we've ever done this. So it's like, we got somebody on here, man. Like, well, we were supposed to do this a month ago and we wanted to wait until we completely like saw exactly what it was. So my man's earned it. Um, dude, it's so hard to find good, trusted lead sources. So. Anytime I find anybody that we can actually trust, I mean, we're not bringing the owner on probably from any other lead source ever, unless it's like some guy up the street, you know what I mean? And in which case, I don't know that we would be bringing on that.
You know what I mean?
Like, you're not going to get like Angie's List CEO coming out here or anything like that. So I do think if nothing else, if you find yourself struggling right now, give them a shot. But I mean, you're so fair too about like, hey, try these and see what you think.
Oh, you guys sent me one yesterday. Or I think it was Dylan responded. I was like, it was incorrect. Like a spam or something like that. And I was like, Oh yeah. I was like, Oh yeah. Like, well, this is when we refund like those. And so that's really important for me to, for people to know is like, Hey, like I want your business to grow. I want it to be successful. So the best thing you can do is give us feedback as we're, as we're growing, which is good.
It happens, man. I mean, we see that all the time. So give them a shout, especially if you're in the industry. Um, or reach out to me, I'll connect you. But we should have you back on, I want to say, in the summer, five, six weeks, something like that. I'd love to get you back on after we, you know what I mean, we actually comb through the busy season and really can sit down and dissect, like, it'd be really cool, closer to November.
Yeah, we could do that, too.
There were some things, aren't there? Yeah, I know. Things will hopefully be a little bit better by then, I'm just saying, but get you back in here. I didn't know you were up here so often, so we can have you on whenever, man, but get you back on. Yeah, absolutely, it's fun. at least in the next six months, and then we'll do a part two. But dude, honestly, anytime we get a chance to talk about marketing in this industry, I think people are always going to perk up because it's number one. It's true. Sales is number one.
Sales is number one. Yeah. But marketing isn't.
But I mean, that's the thing, right? So Ryan would argue, he would argue that if you don't have anything to sell, Sales is obsolete, but I agree. A really good salesman has the ability to create his own leads. Right. But that is very, very few and far between. And even too, if you have like, I'm going to go on a tangent, but it's never hurts to have a diversifier lead sources.
It's all about diversification. A hundred percent.
Couldn't agree more. I mean, and I would leave you guys with this too, but this is totally free value, but it's something that one of my buddies told me, um, your, You always want your own internal or residual lead source that you know that you own, that you have exclusivity over or whatever. And this is not, you know, you, you offer exclusive actual, uh, lead sources, but most, excuse me, leads, but most other sources that aren't internal don't, they don't. And the whole game is they sell it four or five times over. So it's like, you have to have that like main course, if you will, however, whatever that is. And that main course should really depend on exclusivity. So you can do things like sell for really good margins, not have to worry about the objection being I've got five other estimates coming, a multitude of things. They're easier to deal with. They close higher. They close more often, all of those variables. But then adding a nice complement of side dishes, which is usually your
That's how your business really scales is you got to have that. I mean, this is true for any business. You got to have lots of different inflow into your business to increase that opportunity in order to increase that confidence for growth. Right?
Yeah. Diversify, man. Look, brother, it's been an absolute pleasure.
Yeah. Thank you for having me.
Can't wait to get you back on next time, man. Absolutely. See you guys here soon. Anything you got to say to anybody, anything, Juan, or websites, anything you want to shout out before we jump off?
No, I just want to, I mean, I thank your team, your team's class act. Really appreciate you having me on. This is awesome.
Oh, I appreciate it, brother. Thank you. Thank you, Roger. We'll meet you later. Yeah, Roger's the man. Good job, dude.
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